U.S. auto bailout deal collapses over union wages

Friday 12th December, 11:00 AM JST

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presto345 at 07:11 PM JST - 12th December

The UAW still think they can dictate the rules to make or break the industry. They are right about the latter one.
SuperLib at 07:55 PM JST - 12th December

GJDailleult: Even if you got rid of all wage and other disadvantages that posters above are talking about, you would still have the much bigger problem of falling market share for the Big3. And that is caused by other factors. Even if the UAW caved in and the playing field was level with Japan, how does that solve the problem of getting more people to buy their products?

I dunno.....do ya think an extra $50 billion or so in GM's pockets over the last 20 years could have maybe lead to an increase in design quality?

Nah. It's gotta be something else.
GJDailleult at 09:39 PM JST - 12th December

I don't disagree SuperLib. You could even argue that the financial pressures led to more short-term thinking, like producing the gas guzzlers that had always made money in the past and so were safe. I am just saying that now the problem is much more than just the cost structure. Fix that and you still have the main problem. Doesn't matter if you pay your workers $5 an hour or $50, if nobody wants what you are selling you will go bankrupt, just a question of how fast. (And I don't mean that NOBODY wants their products, that is just to explain what I mean).
smithinjapan at 10:14 PM JST - 12th December

GJDailleult: "Doesn't matter if you pay your workers $5 an hour or $50, if nobody wants what you are selling you will go bankrupt, just a question of how fast."

As you don't disagree with SuperLib, I don't really disagree with you here, either. But methinks the increase in design quality he spoke of could may well be also the cause for the increase in product interest you say is necessary.

Either way, they blew it.
GJDailleult at 10:50 PM JST - 12th December

smithinjapan- Two separate issues here I think. One is long term, how to rebuild the US (and Canadian!) car industries. If that is the issue then SuperLib and others have some good points. Two is short term, you have two companies who say they need billions in the next few months to survive, and a third in almost as bad shape. And if one goes under, they all will, because one bankruptcy will likely wipe out their parts suppliers. Fixing issue one is not going to happen in time to affect issue two. Whether they should be allowed to go under or not, that's another question. But the solutions talked about here will be too late in any case.
proxy at 10:55 PM JST - 12th December

The short sellers are going to make a lot more money today than was on the table. Did the senate vote down the bailout to help their short selling campaign contributors?
SezWho2 at 11:12 PM JST - 12th December

I really think that the UAW should call the Senate's bluff and agree to the wage cuts provided only that the Senators take the same percentage cut and give up health care for retired Senators.
sailwind at 11:37 PM JST - 12th December

I really think that the UAW should call the Senate's bluff and agree to the wage cuts provided only that the Senators take the same percentage cut and give up health care for retired Senators.

AGREED!!!! I'd also like campaign contributions by the UAW be banned also.

Your thoughts...Sez
SezWho2 at 11:42 PM JST - 12th December

Sure, as long as we ban campaign contributions from all other organizations and allow personal contributions only.
sailwind at 11:54 PM JST - 12th December

Sure, as long as we ban campaign contributions from all other organizations and allow personal contributions only.

Agreed again

Darn that McCain

The Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (BCRA, McCain–Feingold Act, Pub.L. 107-155, 116 Stat. 81, enacted March 27, 2002) is United States federal law that amended the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, which regulates the financing of political campaigns. Its chief sponsors were Senators Russell Feingold (D-WI) and John McCain (R-AZ). The law became effective on 6 November 2002, and the new legal limits became effective on 1 January 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BipartisanCampaignReform_Act
rjd_jr at 12:24 AM JST - 13th December

OK smithinjapan, agreed then. I wasn't trying to paint japanese as victims or any of that sort. I was just referencing world war 2 because obviously the past relations between japan and the U.S. do still affect the relations between the two today. I was never trying to make it seem as if japan was the victim in world war 2 or anything remotely of that nature. The fact is again, though relations between the two today are good, something like this can light a fuse and the past bad blood between the two nations is an easy catalyst for that out of work auto maker.
ca1ic0cat at 03:06 AM JST - 13th December

It would be a huge shock to the families relying on UAW wages to suddenly find themselves facing a family budget that was greatly reduced. That would be a disaster for most of us. So what the Senate GOP is insisting on is simply unrealistic.

I don't think the auto companies should be bailed out unless their senior management, BoD, etc are sacked. At least those guys are rich enough that they have a cushion to fall back on. Plus they made the mistakes that got the US auto industry into this mess in the first place. But that's a different discussion.

Sezwho, I like your litmus test. I would love to see the senate get sacked too. And the house. They seem to have dug a pretty big hole for the US as well.

At least GWB is almost history.
sharky1 at 03:26 AM JST - 13th December

Way to go UAW...now we can kiss the big 3 goodbye, and all your jobs with it.
adaydream at 05:26 AM JST - 13th December

Here's 3 links that don't seem too far off about UAW wages.

I think that the GOP is just trying to bust the UAW.

I hear how the auto labors are being paid too much. But I have to ask you, each one of you posters, how much do you make an hour? How much is put away by your employer for your retirement and health insurance, etc. How much in direct and indirect benefits. Now wrap all this together and how much do you make?

Now compare what you get and what UAW autoworkers make. You want trained and experienced workers, you have to pay a decent wage.

I retire 14 months ago and I remember the $100 + hourly wages that were being paid to computer programmers and consultants. And you want to complain about honest wages.

This is just an attempt by the GOP to hurt the middle class once again and bust up the UAW. < :-)

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/05/that-was-easy-uaw-and-gm-agree-on-lower-wages-after-six-months/

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/11/19/ap5717126.html
Smythe at 07:58 AM JST - 13th December

Remember if there was to be any money going to the Big 3 then according to the USA Govt not one penny was to go to outsiders. So no one is to assume Cdn plants would benifit.

I go along with the thinking of Smithinjapan that if you produce or offer something others do not want then you are not going to sell it.

Also seems that rid jr is yattering about WWII to even in the 80s to 90s & what went on during the 80s or 90s for WWII was over & people were learning to forget WWII hard feelings?

I do not know what State, city, or town rid-jr lives in, but I live in a small town in the Okanagan Valley of B.C. Canada. From the day I moved here in '60 so many of my Japanese, Chinese or other Asian neighbors/farmers were my friends as well. While greater percentage of us are Whities from all over. True we have had people from Indian, Pakistan with various religions, but what the heck there is no grief other then them slowly becoming Canadians.

This matter of products made in Japan to Japanese people, good gosh you should look at Walmart, Home Hardward, Canadian Tire to so many other firms to even the Hudson Bay Company & others we are being FLOODED with products MADE IN CHINA that only sell because they are cheap in price though not well made. Soon most of the scooters will be made in China, to good probability even Chinese made cars. Thing is that rather then your bit of trying to frighten those that own cars/trucks made in Japan or same made in the USA by Jpn plants in USA to your warning to Japanese people.

Lastly can you tell a Japanese person apart from one that is Chinese or many of the other Asian population? Persoanlly I cannot.