Monday May 28, 2012

U.S. automakers face skeptical senators on aid plan

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  • 0

    elbudamexicano

    Let me see, the US senators are acting as if they are playing "hard ball" against the BIG 3, hmmm... How much of a bribe, kick backs will it take for the senators to start opening the purse strings to the US national treasury?

  • 0

    borscht

    It sounds like the three will get their money because everyone is talking about government control until the loan is paid back. If it keeps the 100s of thousands of ordinary people in a job, I'm for it. Especially if the government agency in control starts by slashing executive salaries and fringe benefits first.

    The three CEOs said they have learned from their mistakes but hey, they've been making the same mistakes for at least 40 years (the 70s bailout of Chrysler). Will they really 'learn' once they get a cushion from the US taxpayer? Not without a cattle prod and a whip, they won't.

  • 0

    SezWho2

    I think it likely that the Big 3 will get operating funds for December. I believe that this is the way they presented their proposal to Congress and I think it was a rather deft move from a daft cartel.

    I don't think anyone, Republicans or Democrats alike, want to be responsible for delivering a Christmas message to the effect that they do not care about the jobs at stake in those industries.

  • 0

    likeitis

    The three CEOs said they have learned from their mistakes but hey, they've been making the same mistakes for at least 40 years (the 70s bailout of Chrysler). Will they really 'learn' once they get a cushion from the US taxpayer? Not without a cattle prod and a whip, they won't.

    I have to second that. Nicely put borscht.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    I hope they don't get it. They don't deserve it, and they'll be back at the table begging for more within the year if they DO get it, saying, "We've made mistakes in the past, but will change our ways if we can get more...".

  • 0

    SezWho2

    smithinjapan,

    I think that depends on who "they" is.

    This is a problem in which a large number of Americans are complicit. I agree that one danger is that helping the industry now may only bring pleas for more help later. However, I don't think that is the only danger.

    If "they" are the executives, they don't deserve it. If "they" are the unions, they don't deserve it. If "they" are buyers of the gas-guzzling products that Detroit has put on the market, they don't deserve it.

    But, if "they" are the workers who needed jobs, or if they are the families of those workers, or if they are companies, workers and families of workers in any of the hundreds of supporting companies that bankruptcy will effect, or if they are the restaurants and retailers that sell to those workers--if that's who "they" is, then as Clint Eastwood said in "Unforgiven":

    Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

    Congress has to do the best thing for America. That's what Americans deserve, I think. If the best thing is to cushion the Big 3's fall, then that's what we should do, whether the executives deserve it or not.

  • 0

    pointofview

    Hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs and the negative affects it`ll have on families, society, other business (economy) etc. will be a far more serious blow to the world than offering the controlled finacial support.

  • 0

    rjd_jr

    Granted many thousands of people will lose their jobs, but why should this give auto workers any special considerations, when many thousands of people in other industries have lost their jobs, and many more thousands will continue to do so? Bank of America will be laying off tens of thousands. WaMu also. And other industries are suffering, these workers don't get any sympathy or bailouts, why should the auto workers get special help from the stupidity of their execs?

    Time and time again these arrogant execs have brought the auto industry to their knees. At the rate it's going the big 3 will face bankruptcy as it is, in many best case scenarios. Make no mistake I have sympathy for the auto workers, but why do they deserve special considerations when others don't?

  • 0

    Altria

    Hope they go into Chapter 11 before Barack Obama gets his finger in the pie.

  • 0

    adaydream

    This not only effects the 100,000s of autoworkers and the million others associated it within fringe business, but the city of Detroit will also sink. They receive most or all of their tax dollars from autoworkers.

    Big 3 sinks, Detroit sinks, Michigan has already been suffering from lost jobs.

    Money loaned to the Big 3 will repaid. Unemployment, lost health benefits and tax dollars won't be. < :-)

  • 0

    SezWho2

    rjd jr,

    I don't think it's the auto workers who deserve special consideration, I think it's the American economy and Americans that deserves consideration. Whatever happens to the Big 3, auto workers are going to lose their jobs. The question would be how many of them, how soon and with what effect on thousands of other workers whose work supports the auto workers' work.

  • 0

    VOR

    No amount of money is going to fix Detroit's out of date business model. They need to declare bankruptcy so they can restructure.

    Borrowing money from Congress only puts the government in charge of a business no one in government is capable of managing. These are the same people who have been entrusted to manage social security, teaching our kids, maintaining our infrastructure and protecting our borders.

  • 0

    adaydream

    I'm not talking about fixing anything. I just don't want the city to collapse.

    We got enough to pay for already.

    At least this is a loan to the Big 3. We're supposed to get it back. < :-)

  • 0

    rjd_jr

    Yes SezWho, but again what about the tens of thousands of Americans who have lost their jobs in other industries, and many more in the future that will? I just don't understand bailing out a certain industry for the sins of the execs and UAW. When my tax dollars are helping people from one industry, and not helping people from other industries, it is giving these auto workers extra consideration. When and where does it end? Who is to say this bailout will keep the industry afloat? What guarantee is there that come this time next year or the year after, the execs won't be crying for yet another bailout? If it's going to fail, it's going to fail, how is it better prolonging it for an extra year or two?

  • 0

    SezWho2

    rjd jr,

    I think your last question is the critical question. I'm not sure that your time frame is accurate, but I think that is beside the point. The point is this: Is there some period of time for which we can give the auto industry support, during which time it can manage to rearrange its affairs so that the adverse effect on the economy is minimized?

    Those who answer that question with a "no" are saying that the minimum damage to the economy accrues by forcing the Big 3 into immediate failure. I'm not sure that is true. Are you? I think it would be better to have a recovery plan first and I don't think this administration has one. Do you?

    Your question about the tens of thousands of other Americans who have lost jobs in other industries is a good one, but I think that the answer to that is this a particularly important industry to the American economy. We are not really acting to save the jobs of the auto workers in the long run--although we might be doing so at Christmas. In the long run we are concerned about the total effect on the American economy.

    If you want the auto workers to lose their jobs, don't worry. That's going to happen. However, I think it should happen in a fashion such that as few other people lose their jobs as possible--if that can be done.

  • 0

    VOR

    One only has to look at who runs the government of Detroit and which political party controls the state to understand the futility of using taxpayer money to fix what is ailing that rustbusket.

  • 0

    zurcronium

    VOR.

    yeah, right. Lets put bush in charge then. He can work his magic on detroit like he did with the federal budget, which as in surplus when clinton left and is now heading for one trillion in debt this year.

    The reason the auto companies are failing are because the execs are plain stupid and pure greedy. They gutted their companies decades ago to make more money for themselves. It is cannibal capitalism. Same as what destroyed the financial industry this year. And the republicans protected them all while they did this.

  • 0

    adaydream

    rjd_jr at 11:47 AM JST - 5th December Yes SezWho, but again what about the tens of thousands of Americans who have lost their jobs in other industries, and many more in the future that will? I just don't understand bailing out a certain industry for the sins of the execs and UAW.

    I understand this sentiment, I really do.

    But just because we couldn't help bailout other industries we just turn our backs now and say, to hell with you. < :-)

  • 0

    apecNetworks

    This post will be lost on many people, but since I am one of the few who have a distinct perspective of this problem, I will state it.

    This problem has been developing for a long time and the actual problem is more than how the Big Three sees it and how the Senate sees it. The problem is much more complex than the cars being produced.

  • 0

    skipthesong

    Let them go down. Its time the market has been washed out.

    Government and Business don't mix. Government, stay the hell out of business.

    They need to go down not only due to their screw ups, but also to teach American workers and their unions a lesson or two

  • 0

    SuperLib

    Does anyone really know why the companies are failing? So far I've heard it's because their execs are stupid, greedy, and arrogant. Seems pretty harsh to punish millions of people to strike a blow against people whose crimes you can only define in general ways. Got anything more concrete?

    The execs already have their money. They'll get absorbed by other companies since they're such a small part of the overall workforce. Or maybe they'll just take the millions they already have and retire early?

    So tell me again....who are you trying to hurt?

  • 0

    SezWho2

    SuperLib,

    Bingo! If refusing to provide any assistance is the best strategy and the one that will cause the least pain for the most people, then we should do that. However, I don't think critics of some form of assistance to auto makers have show that is the case. Spite will leave us noseless without improving the prospects of our face.

  • 0

    skipthesong

    So tell me again....who are you trying to hurt?" The CEO's and the shareholders who elected them should be hit first. Then the unions. Have you seen the difference in pay with GM and Toyota - its like more than half. The unions are a big part in GM's downfall. I am not against unions, but there are some idiots, just like these CEO's, running them.

  • 0

    VOR

    zurc; there you go again, placing blame without checking the facts. The big 3 are huge contributors to the democratic party and if you take some time to do a little fact checking you will be astounded how deeply indebted the democrats are to not only management but also the UAW. What is playing out on television is just a ruse, the Democrats will be paying off some of their political debt to the auto industry using American taxpayer dollars soon enough. the media will find some way of selling it to the public and the nation will continue to go down the toilet like we have over 58 of the 70 odd years of Democratic rule.

    The city of Detroit and the state of Michigan are just example how a democrats run things and a sign of things to come. Almost time for another Tea Party.

  • 0

    Sarge

    I hear the cheapest room at the hotel where GM chief Rick Wagoner is staying is $399 a night.

  • 0

    Sarge

    And I'm pretty sure Rick's not staying in the cheapest room.

  • 0

    rjd_jr

    I'm not completely heartless, I have said previously that I would not mind my tax dollars if it actually went to help the workers themselves, by offering help for schools, retraining, job search, etc. etc. (though it would still bother me somewhat that these people are being helped and not others in other industries, and all workers are covered by the same basic unemployment assistance/benefits, so yes in fact they are being treated extra special).

  • 0

    VOR

    rjd jr, there are already programs in place so i'm not sure if you are suggesting special programs specifically to transition all auto workers (blue collar, white collar, union, non union) affected by the restructuring of GM, Ford and Chrysler onto other career paths? If they live in Michigan, what is the states responsibility? What about workers and business owners providing whose livelihood depends on patronage from those employeed by the auto industry? Where does it stop?

  • 0

    adaydream

    Here's the really stupid part.

    The treasury jumps all over itself to loan money to those firms who lost so much on derivitives, which were backed by absolutely no money at all.

    But we have automakers that also want to borrow under the same program and they have cars. They have a tangible object.

    Let's see... investers with derivitives = no money = loan under TARP

             autoworkers with cars = calateral cash at least for cars = no loan under TARP

    Now this makes no sence at all. < :-)

  • 0

    Betzee

    This past month recorded the highest number of job losses in 35 years. 35 years! This is all taking place against the backdrop of government insolvency, corporate bankruptcy and unprecedented levels of personal indebtedness. The future ain't lookin' good....

  • 0

    adaydream

    VOR I'm going to remember your words, especially after the democrats have an opportunity to take back some control.

    The $4Trillion give away, prescription drug plan and tax breaks after breaks and more tax breaks were forced through by republican controled government.

    I'm just so glad that there were enough republicans that saw through the personal retirement accounts/social security. We would have seen the current $7Trillion loss and even more. < :-)

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