U.S. envoy urges stronger Gaza truce amid airstrikes

Thursday 29th January, 05:50 AM JST

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grafton at 08:12 PM JST - 29th January

“Do we know for sure it was a "Palestinian bombing"? I saw the video of the bombing, as the IDF vehicle approached the bomb location you could clearly hear "Allah Allah..." And then I thought, who benefits from this? I can understand someone (maybe someone who lost family members)”

Let us take a look at this statement made by a an unnamed poster, it starts by casting doubt on what the rest of the world used common sense to see was obvious. It then adds the suspicious “evidence” of hearing “allah allah” reasoning that a real Islamic killer wouldn’t this. Finally in an effort to protect his credibility & of course the credible honestly of hamas he goes on to say that if a Palestinian did do this they very likely had good emotionally understandable reasons like the death of family members.

Yet I have received such contempt here for my support of Israel. Strange, because I have never had to work so hard at twisting a news item into such knots so as to make my point.

From another poster.

“Besides the [Israeli] soldiers were killed INSIDE Gaza, I thought Israel had retreated from Gaza obviously not.”

If you were to read the article you would know that the soldier (singular) was killed inside Israel.

As the international media have shown over the last few weeks it is never a good idea to let truth get in the way of a good story. Sad, but true.

From another.

“Palestinians will keep their dignity until freedom comes.”

The word “dignity” is a touch unconvincing when applied to men that deliberately & callously put their children’s lives in peril to prove a point.

Who among us would allow our children, or anybody else’s children, to be killed to make a political point or “win” a propaganda “victory”?

I have a number of bridges & castle that I want to sell at very good, low prices they will make very good investments because they are sure to increase in value, I guarantee it & you know that you can trust my word. Why would I want to sell these good investments? Well my little daughter is in need of an operation that will save her life & my wife & I don’t have enough money.

If hamas can sucker the gullible I don’t see why I can’t get in on the act & make some money out of them & there are so many of them I will have my hands full inventing bridges & castles, but then I should be able to retire in a month or so.
sabiwabi at 08:59 PM JST - 29th January

Grafton,

Both JT articles offer no evidence proving the bombing was done by Hamas or other Palestinians.

And yes, if a man had his entire family murdered by the IDF, I can understand him wanting to kill IDF soldiers. Is that so unreasonable? And considering about 1000 civilians were killed, including hundreds of children, many Gazans certainly would fit that discription.

But I can't imagine why he would film it and hand it to the news agency right when an American envoy is on the way to settle things. I'm not 100% certain, but this does stink of Mossad.
islamotoko at 09:50 PM JST - 29th January

The cease fire is lacking 3 things. a partner, a monitor and a political process.

Israel thinks because it started attacking Gaza on it's own it can end the conflict on it's own. But thats not how it works. A cease-fire requires a partner. Since Israel does not want to talk with Hamas it declares a cease fire which Israel hopes others can encourage Hamas to. But as we all know how can Hamas agree to a cease fire when the agreement does no include them? In return Hamas has declared a seperate cease fire and so has Islamic Jihad. So what we have atleast 3 independent cease fire agreement because Israel refuses to have a partner.
grafton at 10:00 PM JST - 29th January

sabiwabi at 08:59 PM JST - 29th January “Both JT articles offer no evidence proving the bombing was done by Hamas or other Palestinians.”

I think you mean that neither JT article offers evidence proving that hamas nor any other Palestinian was responsible. And that as far as it goes is correct. However, the ONLY mention of any possible Mossad involvement comes from you. This given your past efforts to excuse all things hamas & Palestinian & condemn all things Israeli is, even for you, stretching credibility just a little too far.

To quote adaydream & myself from yesterday.

adaydream at 01:01 AM JST - 29th January “I understand that Israel is/has been bombing Gaza again in an attempt to destroy more tunnels.”

grafton at 06:09 AM JST - 29th January “adaydream at 01:01 AM JST - 29th January Are you absolutely sure about this? I mean do you have photographic evidence & /or first hand testimonials from reliable witnesses? Remember you can’t just assume that because Israel has recently been bombing Gasa with the same kind of aircraft that these aircraft must also be Israeli. You saw the fuss that was made above in this thread when it took such a long time to work out if the headline was anti-hamas. Detail really is everything & you can’t just go about making assumptions, that really wouldn’t be fair, you could give perfectly good people a bad name that way, & I know that is the last thing you would want to do. Besides, Sabiwabi & Kinniku really need to get some sleep, they have been working very hard today & you wouldn’t want them to have to sort out a whole new issue about your assuming these aircraft were Israeli without proof. Now would you?”

The above makes just as much sense as your reasoning, though I was obviously being sarcastic.

You make excuses & back these up with emotional rhetoric about Gasans who have lost family members. You do not know anything of the kind & you are speculating. Yet you will be the first to demand that any poster provide you verifiable details of anything they write. But it is fine for you to make wild guesses in support of your conspiracy theories. You poison your own arguments by asking for too great a freedom of flexibility while not giving the same to others. Being myopic & dogmatic only forces those that argue against you to follow your lead.
Sarge at 10:34 PM JST - 29th January

"I think the US empowers Hamas by not talking to it"

So then, the U.S. would weaken Hamas by talking to it, right?
SezWho2 at 11:38 PM JST - 29th January

Sarge,

Yes, that's right. It would weaken Hamas by showing the Palestinian people that it is willing to listen to all sides and it would dilute Hamas's ability to use the US as a whipping boy to stir up Palestinian people. At present Hamas is very willing to do that and it is not entirely in the wrong.
JackBerstein at 11:48 PM JST - 29th January

grafton,

Sabiwabi wrote"And yes, if a man had his entire family murdered by the IDF, I can understand him wanting to kill IDF soldiers. Is that so unreasonable?"

Are you saying if the IDF kill a man's entire family, it would be unreasonable for him to want to kill an IDF? Is that what you're saying?

And Sabiwabi does not say it was a Mossad operation, he's just raising the possibility: "I'm not 100% certain, but this does stink of Mossad."

I happen to agree with sabiwabi (surprise, surprise!).
Nessie at 12:47 AM JST - 30th January

How can it be a truce if there are airstrikes? A stronger truce than no truce?
SuperLib at 04:45 AM JST - 30th January

SezWho: Yes, that's right. It would weaken Hamas by showing the Palestinian people that it is willing to listen to all sides and it would dilute Hamas's ability to use the US as a whipping boy to stir up Palestinian people. At present Hamas is very willing to do that and it is not entirely in the wrong.

Do you support an action that would weaken Hamas' position?
grafton at 06:42 AM JST - 30th January

JackBerstein at 11:48 PM JST - 29th January “Sabiwabi wrote"And yes, if a man had his entire family murdered by the IDF, I can understand him wanting to kill IDF soldiers. Is that so unreasonable?" “Are you saying if the IDF kill a man's entire family, it would be unreasonable for him to want to kill an IDF? Is that what you're saying?”

I’m not altogether sure who this man you two are talking about is, should I do a sabiwabi on you & ask for details so that I can check for myself that there really is a man?
I did not make any comment about this mans feelings & possible action because there is no such man, he is a Sabiwabi invention to make a point. There is nothing in the news related to the Israeli soldier being killed that suggests anything other than a Palestinian pressed the button that killed him. Sabiwabi conspiracy fantasies are just that & nothing more. My comments are about that fantasy & the ease with which Sabiwabi falls back HIS ideas while never allowing anybody else such freedoms. If you or I say anything we will be asked for documented date, time & place, & at three independent (by Sabiwabi’s interpretation of independent) witnesses.

You can think what you like to your question, because there is enough reality out there we could talk about rather than me answering questions about men who are inventions.
sabiwabi at 10:57 AM JST - 30th January

grafton,

We do not know who the bombers are and I am making a suggestion as to who it might be. I've made my point more than clear enough. If you still don't get it, ask a grownup to explain it to you.
sabiwabi at 10:58 AM JST - 30th January

If you or I say anything we will be asked for documented date, time & place, & at three independent (by Sabiwabi’s interpretation of independent) witnesses.

No, I don't ask for such thing. Your getting me confused with kinniku!
kinniku at 01:01 PM JST - 30th January

No, I don't ask for such thing. Your getting me confused with kinniku!

Although, you are not speaking to me, let me respond...Actually, you ask for 'such a thing' all the time. I remember you taking it to extremes in September of 2006, when you suggested:

There is no concrete evidence to support the holocaust, the main thing they have are witness testimonies.

Then when anyone suggests you are mistaken, you start calling them "Zionists" or members of "Mossad" or some such thing...
grafton at 08:59 PM JST - 30th January

kinniku at 01:01 PM JST - 30th January “No, I don't ask for such thing. Your getting me confused with kinniku! Although, you are not speaking to me, let me respond...Actually, you ask for 'such a thing' all the time. I remember you taking it to extremes in September of 2006, when you suggested: There is no concrete evidence to support the holocaust, the main thing they have are witness testimonies. Then when anyone suggests you are mistaken, you start calling them "Zionists" or members of "Mossad" or some such thing...” Kinniku, thank you for giving me a much clearer picture than I thought I already had. “No concrete evidence to support the holocaust” tells me a great deal, I hadn’t seen that & if I had I wouldn’t have been quite so respectful of Sabiwabi as I have been. Sabiwabi “We do not know who the bombers are and I am making a suggestion as to who it might be. I've made my point more than clear enough. If you still don't get it, ask a grownup to explain it to you.”

In this particular situation I am the grown up. I am in fact old enough to have gone to school with the children of holocaust victims, I knew their families & can still remember the numbers imprinted on their parents arms. You have constantly claimed that you against what ISRAEL have been doing without having any anti-Jewish feeling, yet you question the holocaust? The idea for the state of Israel predates the holocaust by a long time. The “Zionists” predate the holocaust by a long time. Nothing but your own fantasy brought Mossad into the bombing that killed the soldier. In a very obvious situation you found a way to defend the Palestinians by introducing an idea that was tenuous in the extreme. Had you said nothing the bombing would have passed as yet another death, but your reasoning showed that you were trying far too hard to defend the indefensible & you did so with a childlike conspiracy theory.

You invented a man who had his entire family killed by the Israelis as means of making your point & from you I accepted that, it was a working example that anybody might use. But to have another poster (JackBerstein) throw this up at me meant that I answered it. In this instance you were being talked about, not to. Which is something that you obviously disliked, after all, nobody likes having their foibles shown up for what they are.

I have asked you before to stop hiding behind your “reasoned arguments” & come out & say what you feel. But you are frightened to be seen as being anti-Jewish because that is seen as not being politically correct & you are always PC. Me? I’m not at all PC, I have lived through much of what you think (& pretend) you are arguing about. I believe that Israel should have started the air attack earlier & still be conducting it today. Land forces need never have gone in. Also Egypt should have been told that the bombing was also going to take place along their frontier, both sides, until they closed the tunnels at their end. You have ignored Egypt’s role in all of this, but they have been two faced through out, but they are not Jewish so you have little to say about their role.

You have written too much & twisted too many details to suit yourself to now say you are anything but anti-Jewish. Hamas are murders, they kill & intimidate their own, whatever they may have pretended to be at the beginning. If you cannot see that it is because you don’t want to. You have followed Bush’s words, your enemy is my enemy.
SezWho2 at 09:05 AM JST - 31st January

SuperLib,

Do you support an action that would weaken Hamas' position?

Do you mean any action or the particular action that I have already supported as weakening Hamas's position? If you mean "any action", the answer is "no". If you mean the action I have already supported, the answer is "yes". If you mean some other action, specify and I'll let you know.