U.S. military says soldier used Quran for target practice in Iraq
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0
rjd_jr
Unbelievable, what a disgusting thing to happen nowadays. This soldier is a disgrace to his uniform and country. I don't care how anyone wants to minimize this by bringing up non issues as to Islamic terrorist atrocities or this and that. That has nothing to do with an American soldier who by now should understand, after over five bleeping years in Iraq, that you don't insult an entire religion by using as target practice one of its most holy relics.
Sickening.
0
skipthesong
you don't insult an entire religion by using as target practice one of its most holy relics" So, I guess you don't approve of me hitting my brother over the head with a bible?
Jokes aside, but I did do that.Anyway, this points to more the reason why religion either needs to be banned or at least minimized. We just had a guy throw some dog off a cliff over there and there wasn't any outrage outside the West. While you are correct that he should known better, or perhaps he did, it still doesn't constitute an outrage with banners calling for the guys death - as there were!
Now, even with the officer kissing the book, there are some saying that was just as bad..
I would say, to get over this issue, let the guy out of the military, walk down anyone one of those streets with a sign on him. That would make things go over much better and satisfy the radicals.
0
SezWho2
skipthesong,
I agree with you. I don't think religion should be banned, but we should work toward a more secular society and that would, I think, necessitate the minimization of religion.
I, too, wondered about the propriety of an infidel (presumably) kissing the holy book, but I hadn't heard anything specific about that. What struck me, though, was what I though was the similarity between cartoons of the prophet and bullet holes in Qu'ran. We defend one and apologize for the other. Now why would we do that?
0
SezWho2
er... or "...what I thought was the similarity..."
0
Betzee
The model here is Turkey, a secular state with a Muslim population. The current Prime Minister was jailed for reading an Islamist poem at a rally, when he was a Mayor, which violated Turkish laws stipulating religion must be kept out of public life.
The Turks adopted the view which came out of the French Enlightment that religion was an impediment to modernization and therefore should be banned from public life. But the American view emphasizes the rights of individuals, hence it's possible to both defend the cartoons, or specifically the person who drew them which elicited death threats, as well as the rights of believers not to have their holy book desecrated in this manner. In Iraq we are fighting a war which necessitates "winning hearts and minds" and it can't be done this way obviously.
0
adaydream
He's a dumb ass. I hope they locate him.
That's all that you can call this individual. I hope he gets courtmartialed.
0
TonyUS
:) oohhh anger anger. If I had possession of a book that means nothing to me it is hard to tell what I would do with it!!!
Might have been his thinking as well along with the radicals of this religion being the cause of some or many of his friends getting killed..
I do not se no big deal about it and in some ways do not blame him for his actions. I would say many are very pissed off over there on both sides, especially the Islamic extremists which there is no shortage of, hope that isn’t including anyone here……..
0
adaydream
Maybe your kind of thinking TonyUS is what he was thinking.
He's a dumbass.
Maybe when he comes back home, he might want to do this. But not in Iraq. ((Iraqi police found the bullet-riddled Quran with graffiti inside the cover on a firing range near a police station in Radwaniyah)) Oh no, this dumb ass sniper had to do it in their back yard.
Now that's jepordizes his buddies and every other US military individual. Maybe you can justify it, but I wouldn't.
0
Zen_Builder
Lets see if someone nailed a Bible to a tree and set it alight. Would it still be ok?
The Torah and Quran are highly valued more so than the Bible by christians.
Personally, the Soldier did the totally wrong thing. His action could really have blown up in the face of the US military and his buddies.
0
Helter_Skelter
Funny how the socialists who don't even believe in religion become outraged with issues like this when Americans are involved. So predictable.
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skipthesong
Funny how the socialists who don't even believe in religion become outraged with issues like this when Americans are involved." I've been pointing that out for a while. Still, adaydream is correct, not in their back yard.
It's like someone from a gang tags up another gang's domain - you just don't do that if you aren't looking for trouble.
0
skipthesong
Why should this be any different than say burning another country's flag?
0
Madverts
"The elaborate ceremony—in which one U.S. officer kissed a new copy of Islam’s holy book"
I'm impressed.
Though I bet the radical war supporters aren't.
0
SezWho2
Betzee,
Yes, it is possible to defend the cartoons of the prophet and condemn blasting away at the Qu'ran. However, I don't think we need to go to Turkey or to the France in the enlightenment to do so. That we are doing so is proof enough of the possibility.
If we reformulate your statement, "it's possible to defend the rights of believers not to have their prophets dishonored and not to have their holy book desecrated in this manner". Many things are possible. Parsimony would have us look for guidelines which are easiest to understand and interpret--not that those would be the right ones.
Yes, of course it is true that we can't win hearts and minds by declaring open season on Islam's holy text. However, I wonder if the flap would have been any less severe if instead of leaving behind a well-ventilated copy of the Qu'ran we had left obscene drawings of the prophet in the latrines.
0
super delegate
The selective outrage might be taken a wee bit more seriously if Islamofascists weren't blowing up mosques in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan. Likewise, as long as foreign-born jihadis choose Iraqi wedding ceremonies when their uniquely religious right to self-detonate possesses them I find it hard to feel anything close to the sort of faux indignation on display here.
But hey, this little bit of news is quite a contrast to the stories we were treated to before the surge...
Moderator: Please refrain from using meaningless expressions like "Islamofascists."
0
SezWho2
superdelegate,
I'm with you. I think this soldier had every right (unless specifically proscribed by the military) to use any old piece of printed material as a target--the Qu'ran, the Bible, the Constitution (that "g#dd#mned piece of paper"), Playboy, whatever. I'd even extend that to flags.
But the indignation expressed here concerns what we do and not what "they" do. It's difficult to believe that we have a soldier so dim or so full of hate that he could possibly believe that using the Qu'ran for target practice could be a good thing. And that's to say nothing of him being so careless or so openly contemptuous as to leave the evidence behind.
0
Triumvere
Winning hearts and minds, I see.
0
Betzee
SezWho, The US military has invested a small chunk of change in cultural familiarization materials for those being deployed to foreign lands. Though I don't believe the one on Iraq explicitedly says "Don't use the Koran for target practice," one would certainly come away with that understanding after reading it.
As for the defense, "Well, the terrorists blow up mosques and kill people attending weddings." So we're comparing ourselves to them? How can GWB then claim we offer an alternative to their dark vision? I mean that's our ace in the hole according to the Commander in Chief.
Imagine the reaction if it came to light the PLA were using photos of the Dalai Lama, a sacred object for Tibetan Buddhists, for target practice? Talk about selective outrage.
0
sailwind
Not proud of the bonehead individual Soldier that did this, but proud of this Officer on how he responded.
“I come before you here seeking your forgiveness,” Maj Gen Jeffery Hammond was quoted as saying at the ceremony. “In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers.”
“I come before you here seeking your forgiveness,” Maj Gen Jeffery Hammond was quoted as saying at the ceremony. “In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers.”
“The actions of one soldier were nothing more than criminal behavior,” he added. “I’ve come to this land to protect you, to support you—not to harm you—and the behavior of this soldier was nothing short of wrong and unacceptable.”
An Officer that takes total responsibility....rare these days in the Military and the Civilian sector, class act Sir.
0
rjdsr
Now I know how to get home - shoot a bunch of manga!
0
Sarge
"one U.S. officer kissed a new copy of Islam's holy book"
Now that's disgusting.
0
SezWho2
USNinJapan2,
That a word is in a dictionary or encyclopedia does not imply that we can use it meaningfully. Take, for example, the "N"-word, which you can look up at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/######
You'll have to do your own spelling.
Yes, the term that you wish to defend does have a meaning. For some it means one thing and for others it means something different if anything at all--(rather like the "N"-word). Wiki itself refers to the word as "controversial".
It seems like meaningless name-calling to me, not much different than "Lefty"--except in "meaning" of course. The core component of meaning is hatred.
0
SezWho2
Betzee,
I'm sure one would come away with the understanding that the Islamic good book shouldn't be used for target practice. Apparently though, another didn't. Or perhaps he understood but didn't care.
0
Madverts
"Now that's disgusting"
No, uh, sarge - it's encouraging.
It means that the people on the dung end of the stick that were sent to fight Bush Co's dirty war are reading the people better now, and understanding how to deal with an issue as sensitive as this.
I'm not surprised, however, that you don't get it.
0
Sarge
"it's encouraging"
No, uh, madverts - it's disgusting. That U.S. officer can kiss the Koran in his private time if he wants, but he shouldn't do that in an official ceremony. I'm not surprised, however, that you don't get it.
By the way, why is it that you don't support the people fighting the scumbags who would torture and kill or at least enslave you?
0
RomeoRamenII
"The incident, which occurred on May 9 and was discovered two days later, was first reported by CNN..."
Just returned from The New Sanno Hotel where I was watching the nearly non-stop coverage of this "story" by the Crescent News Network.
The U.S. Military is taking corrective action and hasn't tried to cover up anything.
Meanwhile, the world awaits for any Muslim leader to step up and speak out against the Islamoterrorists who blows up people without remorse and beheads captives all in the name of their religion.
RR
0
Zaphod
It is just so typical that Association of Muslim Scholars immediately finds all the energy in the world to complain about an alleged Koran desecration. Wouldn´t it be interesting to see them get equally excited about any of the murders carried out by Sunni jihadists on a daily basis. But don`t hold your breath for that.
0
Alphaape
Desercration is bad for any book, but for the muslims there to get bent out of shape for a holy book to me is a bit "silly." Don't get me wrong, I consider myself a devout Christan, and would not want anyone to destroy a Bible. But if they did, I would not get bent out of shape for the destruction of the book, simply because the religion is to be lived and is within me. True if it was my only Bible I would be upset if I could not read it daily or if it had some significance because it was given to me by my family, but to be on the wrath because someone desecrated a book is a bit extreme.
I know what is in the Bible, and I try to live it. If you destroy a book, then that is what you do. The religion is more about what is in the book, and not so much the book itself. I find it amazing, that anyone can go to the Vatican and walk aroun and look at the artifacts there, but any non-Muslim is not allowed to enter Mecca (they have a high way sign that is labled "Christian Bypass" that I have seen). I think that they need to take a deep breath and step back and think rationally.
Yes it was a bad act, but I don't think we need to go bow down and kiss thier feet. They wouldn't do it for a Bible that was shot up.
0
Sarge
Madverts - No, he kissed the Koran ( you should capitalize Koran with a big K, like I have here, if you want to show respect, by the way ) because he was under heavy pressure.
0
Betzee
Look, we have enormous sunk costs in Iraq. Yet General Petreaus acknowledged in March that "recent gains are fragile and reversible." Under these circumstances, you gotta go the extra mile.
0
TonyUS
adaydream,, please control yourself.. If it is his book he can do with it as he pleases no matter where he is at and that is what he done. As I read others opinions about the bible and defacing it or flags being burnt, hey it happens all the time all over the world..
I do not care where it is and who it is, what you do with one of your possession is your business and many times it is to show your dislike to a certain issue or circumstance and all have that right as for being from a free democracy. Do not stoop or bow to those that support control over others as it seems you are trying to commit to. If this is your choice, fine, go move to one of these countries where you can have your life controlled and ruled by another.
Of course the military will take action concerning this issue just for the fact of relations with the general ideology of what I see as radicals that are the ones that are keeping the ciaos alive over there. All we need is more softness in taking control of the situation that from the beginning got completely out of hand from trying to play good guy to all sides, take for instance extremist Sadar, one that should have been disposed of right from the start but still around threatening peace and stability in Iraq and warning all out killing of US service men and that was before this incident .
If someone wants to target practice with a bible, hey that is their right if it is their's, It is not hurting me even if I am a christian. Just makes me feel they have a negative issue with it. There are more! This part of being part of acivilized culture, something that can not be said for some of these people over there.... GEEZ!!!!!!!!
0
Betzee
Um Tony, there's no sense from your post of the context under which this incident occurred.
One could make this argument if the person did this in his backyard at home. Instead it occurred after he was sent to Iraq by the Army. When someone else sends you, be it the Army or the Peace Corps or whoever, they absolutely have the right to impose restrictions on personal conduct because you're representing the organization, not yourself.
I know for many on the Right apologizing is to be avoided at all costs cuz it makes you look weak. Kissing a copy of the Koran must have been a real emetic for many.
Yet what's the alternative? Dismissing the incident as one of "my rights [in your country]." What's going to be the likely Iraqi response? I don't want to go back to the days when we were losing 100 people a month to IEDs, and neither should anybody else.
0
TonyUS
I do not see anyone victimizing one of our soldiers as for the good they are there to do. If anything. stand up for them and try understand the pressures they are under from the conditions and circumstances they are facing on a daily basis..
Maybe he is representing the face of the US but on the other hand he is human and humans have feelings and also limits.
Sure no one wants to se more deaths of anyone on either side or of around the world as a whole but as for misjudgments by individuals there are many issues playing in the part of ones actions and should not be seen as the villain after that person has served and paid his dues in such a hostile environment. I stand up for him and not those extremists that want to make him some evil.
So you can have your view and opinion and I will keep mine. Shooting a Koran.. If that relieved his pain, good for him! The extremists can suffer as they have made many suffer because of such senseless beliefs of the extreme.
Our soldiers and commanders in Iraq have had a worthless bunch of advisors and military planners from the start, especially once they reached Baghdad which was so widely publicized as such a record advance, then not knowing what to do as all sat back and watched the place destroyed by looting and all other acts of violence, also extremist gathering in groups as extremist leaders inspired 1000’s at a time out in the open on the streets infront of the soldiers, telling the people to kill and stand against the invaders while the troops stood, watching and listening and at the same time more and more people are convinced to fight against those there to give them a better life.. The whole strategy of this war was based on incompetence and some of these guys over their have all reason to be disgusted and full of hate for the religion of Islam when there are so many extremists that base their lives on hatred and death to others, and our guys and gals over there on the receiving end of it.
You have your views , I have mine. What he did may not be good on the relations part of the scheme, but hey, you are not in his position..
0
Betzee
Indeed. Though it's dangerous to go down this road "I wasn't in his position and therefore I cannot pass judgement." In fact I was not passing judgement on him but on those who defended his actions on "my rights" grounds. This is an American mindset which often lands those who possess it in trouble when they venture outside the USA. I also found the whining about "they do it too and worse" a remarkably childish defense.
On this we can agree. In the past those who opposed the American presence were labelled "enemies of freedom." Such a characterization reflected a total lack of insight into Iraq's past and how that might affect different Iraqis' perceptions of their future in a post-Saddam political order which became "democracy at gunpoint."
By contrast, the way this incident was handled reflects recognition of the world as it is, not as we might like it to be. This book is sacred to Muslims, a rare point of agreement amongst Iraqis carrying on ancient feuds at great cost to everyone. What any of us think of it, or religion in general, is irrelevent. It was heartening the military, and even GWB, recognized what is at stake here in their efforts to apologize for this soldier's causing offense.
0
unscrejects
You endanger the lives of your fellow soldiers and countrymen... the only thing good for you is the wall. They should blind fold him...
0
TonyUS
unscrejects, That is real ignorance a remark like that. Why don't you go take his place!
0
TonyUS
I know a few that has been there and back home, I run a rural bussiness, and as for these guys going over there risking their lives I could never say that about any of them especially over the Koran, Some BS that has only brought about extreme thinking and hate and death towards others. Maybe not by all, but that is the basis of it.
0
Zaphod
Betzee:
This is so totally wrong on so many levels. Not all Iraqis are muslims, and the Koran is not sacred for Yazidis, Mandeans, or Christians... those who remain after the last few years of brutal attacks by muslims, both Sunni and Shia. And religion is not irrelevant at all here. It is the Koranic teaching of jihad against unbelievers until they are all in submission under Shariah which is basis for the jihadist terror in Iraq, both of Sunni and Shia persuation.
To say sorry about the soldier who shot the thing is OK. To kiss the book of conquest is quite another; it is a public symbol of submission under the only true religion -- and it only confirms to the Jihadist that they are right. The next logical step would be the mass conversion of the US to islam... something that Ahmedinejad has already called for in his letter to Bush.
This is so very wrong and show so clearly how the US government still does not get at all what we are all up against. (Of course, in that they are not different from many posters here.)
0
super delegate
Maybe the soldier in question is too young to realize that although the Koran is quoted frequently and at length by Osama bin Laden and his death cult, and by Khomeini's homicidal followers in Iran, and by Muslim suicide bombers from Bali to London, and by the "insurgents" killing his fellow soldiers in Iraq, and by the hooded cowards who behead 'infidels' on the internet, and by "Palestinian" killers of Israeli children and innocents, that doesn't necessarily make it a sort of field manual for the entire Ummah .
0
Zaphod
Super Delegate:
Actually, it is a field manual for the entire Ummah. Even moderate muslims agree that the Koran must not be criticized, never, ever, ever. Which is why this whole Western idea of blanking out the "islam" aspect from the islamic jihad is so futile.
Of course, there are plenty of moderate muslims. The problem is that they are not very muslim, i.e. they don`t have a theological leg to stand on. OBL and his fellow travellers have the word of god on their side.
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