U.S. Senate passes health care bill
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0
USAFdude
Merry Christmas, America! Let all good patriotic Americans show their thanks to our courageous Senators:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/senateletter/?source=122409_OFAFB
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Taka313
Let's hope the House can re-introduce some sanity to this bill. There are so many Americans depending upon it.
Peace,
Taka
0
Sarge
In spite of this legislative disaster, Merry Christmas, America!
0
goodDonkey
Taka313 said:
I don't see that happening. I expect the Senate Bill to remain pretty much intact. A few Senators are holding the Bill hostage with their demands. It is a shame but it is a reality of maintaining a successful cloture vote. I do not think this bill goes far enough to meet a threshold of the kind of reform that is truly needed. However, I think we need to pass something now and work on it in the years that follow. I now believe the public option is dead in the water. Many other hopes I had for true reform have vanished.
My hope is that over time we can add the measures that would make us a responsible country with respect to medical care. I believe the simple question is whether we want more healthy Americans or less. The majority of people have spoken; they just want to be greedy. The Republicans have often played upon our citizen's greed. We have an ignorant populace in general who can be led like sheep.
The fascist Republicans use the tool that fascists have always used successfully - fear. Don't get me wrong I believe Lieberman and some Democrats have acted like crooks in this whole affair.
At least we beat the Republicans who just wanted to gain politically by continuing to withhold medical care from those in need. It will take many years to reach truly universal health care but at least we are on the pathway.
0
adaydream
Merry Christmas World!
I know the bill could be better, but it's a good start. It'll get better with age and the republicans can work on it too, instead of just trying to stop health care reform.
God Bless America. < :-)
0
seijichuudo9sha
"The fascist Republicans use the tool that fascists have always used successfully - fear."
You said it,good donkey, my revolutionary brother. And now that health care reform is out of the way, (but wont actually kick in til 2014 - brilliant strategy!) , and the imminent collapse of our economy, which Barack so often warned our "ignorant populace , who can be led like sheep" (great description) about has been forestalled, its time to move on to the next crisis: the environment. Cap and trade, people. As ex vice president Gore has said the very existence of mankind is at stake here. Time for debate? Time for debate is OVER!
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cracaphat
In spite of the negative minority.Merry Xmas World.
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seijichuudo9sha
A Merry Government-Regulated Winter Holiday to correct-thinking peoples only, everywhere!
0
Badsey
-no wonder why Harry Reid initially voted against this bill. -So much money, confusion and bitterness.
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yabits
Thanks to the Democrats, the Senate has just passed what The New Republic calls "the greatest social achievement of our time."
The bills critics like to gloss over the fact that the current U.S. health care system is "uniquely horrible -- twice as costly as the OECD average while producing mediocre results and denying care to millions."
The bill is far from perfect, but even in its current form is a vast improvement. Thank you Senate leadership and President Obama.
0
Wolfpack
It's great and all that socialists are happy about America's new health care system, but meanwhile the country is spending itself into oblivion. America cannot sustain it's current social welfare programs much less add another. ObamaCare envisions an additional $900 billion in health care spending on top of the already nearly one sixth of GDP currently being spent for health care. Where does the money come from to pay for the more than $50 trillion in unbacked benefits due for Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid over the next 70 years? America has a nearly $2 trillion deficit for the current fiscal year alone. The accumulated debt will reach $22 ~ $25 trillion within ten years. A significant and growing portion of the annual budget goes to debt payments.
The Soviet Union destroyed itself in a very similar manner as the US and Japan are doing today. The USSR spent huge amounts on social programs and the military. The US is doing the same - and the countries military obligations will only grow in the future. Japan is borrowing more than half of this coming fiscal years budget to pay for increased social programs in a nation that is getting older and whose population is shrinking.
What kind of nation will future generation inhereit where inflation and unemployment are all high? Where will the innovation and economic growth come from when businesses are crushed under huge amounts of taxation and regulation? I sincerely believe that this profligate spending in the face of huge and growing deficits and debt is flat out insanity. Where socialists are giddy with excitement over the passing of health care, I am both depressed and angry over the future prospects of my country.
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USAFdude
wolfpack -
No, you're not; you're still pissed off that your side lost the election, nothing more. But, since you "sincerely believe that this profligate spending in the face of huge and growing deficits and debt is flat out insanity", you could always leave; we patriotic Americans won't miss you.
0
yabits
On a side note: thanks and kudos to the moderators for their often thankless efforts to raise the standard level of discussion. I believe that I am a better poster as a result.
Genuine socialists are not at all happy with the health care plan since it does not contain a public option. Giving up the public option and forging ahead with a bill that helps the vast majority of American families is done in recognition of the power that the insurance companies and lobbyists have over legislation.
The attitude of the Republican right appears to be this: "If it is not an immediate problem to me, it must not be a problem to anyone else."
Regarding the spending, it is ironic how in 2000 the Republican leadership was handed a federal budget that projected surpluses "as far as the eye could see." So much so that then Fed Chairman Greenspan actually expressed concern that the U.S. might start paying off its national debt at too great a pace. Nevertheless, the Republican candidate promised the American people that we could still have a surplus and enact massive tax cuts. This bears mentioning because it clearly shows how Republican mismanagement and dishonesty is hugely responsible for getting the nation where it is today.
I am a small business owner. Taxation and represents no drag whatsoever on the number of patents and trademarks that we have filed, as well as our constant drive to innovate and improve our products and services. I love my country and, if I knew that we could have the high quality of life -- including improved access to health care for all -- that countries like Switzerland enjoy, I would be happy to be taxed at the same levels as they are.
By comparing the United States to the Soviet Union, the right-wingers are pronouncing that they are of the glass-half-empty view of our nation's prospects. Many nations with better health care delivery systems are not in danger of financial collapse, and so it doesn't have to be that way here either. Pushing for tax cuts in the light of the massive military spending needed to fight wars is/was the root of the insanity.
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Wolfpack
USAFDude:
And just how do you know that? That's a pretty ridiculous statement on your part. Dude, if you think I am lying about my concern about huge annual deficits and an unsustainable debt, then I would suppose you could just make up anything to support your point of view. That's not a rational manner of debate.
Again, that is a ridiculous and irrational statement on your part. Now that Obama is president are only Leftists patriotic? When Bush was president, did you think dissent was the highest form patriotism? I suppose only a Benedict Arnold would dare question the policies of America's greatest socialist leader.
If I'm going to be defeated, I would prefer to go down fighting and not surrender to a political ideology that has failed everywhere it has been tried. President Obama's socialist policies (just like the Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare systems) will fail because they are unsustainable. Socialism always fails because of it's intrinsic failure to understand human nature. The reason that freedom and capitalism works best (though it is by no means perfect) is due to it's harnessing of mankinds inate motivations in a manner that benefits society as a whole. This health care debate is a debate over political ideology and America's future. The more successful President Obama's bankrupting agenda is in Congress, the bleaker America's future becomes. I hardly see how stating the obvious makes me unpatriotic.
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Wolfpack
yabits:
You will get no argument from me on that point. But I believe that President Obama and Democrats have made the same promises to be fiscally responsible and look at where the nations fiscal situation is headed. In just ten years the national debt will go from $10 trillion to somewhere in the range of $20~$25 trillion. We can all make excuses that well, there was 9/11 and Katrina, there was the Dot Com bubble from the Clinton years, or the housing crisis and the Wall Street collapse, etc. All of that is no excuse to expand government when government is already in a huge fiscal hole and is unable to pay for the obligations it already has. We have all heard the saying: 'When you are in a hole, stop digging'. Well, America's government is not only continuing to dig, it is digging faster and deeper than ever.
I admire that sentiment and I hope that you will volunteer more of your income to the IRS because the country will need your support. With increased social spending, your taxes should be much higher than they are now don't you think? As it is, the nation is in a serious debt crisis at current tax rates.
Yes, you are right from the standpoint in that I am extreemingly worried about America's future. I see what has happened to other socialists nations and I worry that could be our fate.
Many nations with better health care delivery systems are not in danger of financial collapse, and so it doesn't have to be that way here either.
0
Wolfpack
yabits - sorry, hit the submit button too sooon...
I agree, but those nations enjoy the benefit of the stability created by the international obligations that America has taken upon itself in the post WWII era. Under presidents from both political parties, America has pursued a foreign policy of expanded freedom and trade. America's debt burden will make it impossible to afford that in the future. That too is pretty scary. What will the world be like with China as the world's leading power? I haven't seen much altruism in their foreign policy. They care little about freedom and human rights.
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USAFdude
Wolfpack -
Easily - because you constantly make irrational statements on JT about how "socialist" you think Obama is and how the health care bill somehow goes against the will of the American people; neither is true, yet you for some reason continue to harp on them. So, you're either a shameless troll or you're pissed off about the election. Not difficult to figure out.
Making the inflammatory, shrieking statements you so often do and then trying to play the level-headed debator after I defeat your points is not a rational manner of debate.
No, your initial assumption about Obama being a socialist is incorrect.
0
Wolfpack
USAFdude:
There is nothing irrational about the fact that Obama is socialist. Can you make a serious argument that he is a free market capitalist? The health care bill does go against the will of the America people. By the only real measures we have to judge public sentiment - the polls - there is a general opposition to this health care bill. The RealClearPolitics poll gives an average of the polls and is a good read of overall opinion of the current health care plan. Currently, it is 51% to 38% against.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obamaanddemocratshealthcare_plan-1130.html
Everyone believes in reforming the health care system. Not everyone believes that government is the answer. I believe that the government is driving the inefficiencies and cost increases. This will not change as government gains control over 80% of health care costs.
"Troll", "pissed off" - more irrational statements demonstrating your 'phsychic' abilities to know the thinking of other people. Try making a rational argument in opposition to what I actually write instead of what you think I a believe. I have been posting here for years. I am no "troll".
You cannot defeat someone else in a debate if you do not make any arguments in defense of your own view and instead call the other person "inflammatory" and question their patriotism. If you can prove that I am not patriotic, then I would be happy to hear your arguments and re-examine my support for my country.
The future of America is in danger by the increase in the deficit and debt caused by growing government spending. This helth care bill does not cut health care spending or reduce the increase. It specifically increases spending by at least $900 billion over the next ten years. But common senses tells us that it will be much more than that because it excludes the Doc fix, the Medicare cuts that probably will not happen, and the historic under estimation of the cost of social welfare programs. These increases costs mean that money that could have been used to reduce the deficit will be spent on another inefficient government program. It makes us all poorer now and in the future, destroys American competitiveness, hinders prospects for future growth, and will lead to higher structural unemployment like that found in Europe.
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