Violence rages across Syria

World Jul. 22, 2012 - 06:57AM JST ( 32 )

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-3

YGHome3Jul. 22, 2012 - 07:55AM JST

I agree with everything that NeverSubmit said in a related thread

http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/thousands-flee-as-syrian-rebels-wage-guerrilla-war

but would like to add one point about the current situation in Syria: America has captured a piece of territory at the southern end of the country. Most of the indigenous inhabitants of this piece of territory have been banished, and western settlers are taking their place. These settlers enjoy the lush land, which grows cherries, apples and vines, and serves as the grazing land for excellent cattle. Assad has always been indignant about this, and demanded that this piece of territory be returned. Hence the strong motivation to replace and get rid of him. More territory will probably be captured after his replacement.
-3

NeverSubmitJul. 22, 2012 - 09:31AM JST

Interesting wording in the sentences, let's analyze.

with regime forces shelling several neighbourhoods,

Are the neighborhoods empty, full of civilians or full or rebels. Why is that not clarified?

as at least 12 civilians were reported dead in the capital

This clause follows the first, but the first clause is referring to Aleppo and the capital is Damascus. So it seems like a vain attempt to connect the shelling with civilian deaths but in fact that isn't true. It's not clear why the 12 civilians were killed. It's very well possible that the rebels are responsible. Once again, it's not clear and the reader is left to come up with their own assumptions based on their particular bias.

seven of them killed by snipers.

The third clause in the sentence. Snipers from which side? Either the AP doesn't know or they'd rather not say. Perhaps they're hoping that if they put that clause in the same sentence as "neighborhood shelled by regime force" that a layman reader will assume that they are army snipers, when in fact that is not clarified and it apparently intentionally obfuscated.

In Damascus, residents said the city was largely calm after days of heavy clashes, although fighting was reported in Al-Hajar Al-Aswad and Tadamon districts.

as noted earlier, once the rebels are rooted out, the situation calms down, meaning that it's the Turkish based rebels who are instigating the violence and bloodshed.

Among the 12 dead were a couple and their son, gunned down in Bab Tuma, a previously quiet Christian neighbourhood of the Old City.

Gunned down by whom, the Syrian police or the Jihadist Rebels. You figure it out.

An AFP photographer reported that it was in the hands of jihadists.

As time goes on it seems that more and more journalists are starting to wonder who these "free" rebels really are. It's widely reported in other news sources that they're in fact jihadists from a variety of neighboring states, Turkey, Iraq and even ones from Libya with experience fighting over there.

Turkish truck drivers accused the rebel Free Syrian Army of turning a blind eye while their vehicles were looted,

The same is being reported all over Syria wherever the rebels go, looting, rape and arbitrary killings.

Celalettin Lekesiz, said “independent groups” and not the mainstream rebels were to blame.

So if there are "independent groups not under the command of the "mainstream" rebels how is any ceasefire going to work? Is it reasonable to ask the Syrian police to stand down while these "independent" groups run around with AK47s looting, raping and killing.

Imagine being a Syrian citizen and calling 911 because there's a nutcase with an automatic rifle outside your home and the dispatcher says "sorry, there's a ceasefire, we can't send any police to help you out."

Observatory director Rami Abdel Rahman told AFP: “The authorities now only really control some 50 to 60% of the country.”

How farsical can this get. A huge organization like the AP and they really solely on one source, this Rami guy who's just sitting by his home computer in the UK dishing out all these reports. Wouldn't it be prudent for the AP to at least refer to other sources. How can we trust this Rami character and all his reports?
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Jonah FalconJul. 22, 2012 - 11:26AM JST

Good comments above!

America has captured a piece of territory at the southern end of the country. Most of the indigenous inhabitants of this piece of territory have been banished, and western settlers are taking their place.

I just want to add that Syria and groups like Hezbollah (possibly with the help of Iran) are the only things preventing "America" from expanding further.

with regime forces shelling several neighbourhoods,

Are the neighborhoods empty, full of civilians or full or rebels. Why is that not clarified?

I guess you and I both know, but many others don't, that this is not clarified because we are meant to believe that the Syrian military is killing innocent civilians. The same can be said about the alleged total body count, we are expected to believe that they were all killed by the Syrian military, rather than by the so-called rebels.
3

nandakandamandaJul. 22, 2012 - 11:42AM JST

This whirlpool was started by internal and external forces. Regardless of the reasons, there are two ways left to stop the killing.

.1. Massive killing until thousands more, perhaps tens of thousands more are dead. The victor? Anybody's guess.

.2. Resignation of Assad and cabinet.

So, it looks like No.1, doesn't it.
-1

the-grouchJul. 22, 2012 - 12:18PM JST

ALL VERY INTELLIGENT COMMENT ABOVE
-1

the-grouchJul. 22, 2012 - 12:20PM JST

I especially praise NeverSubmit. Very well thought out, by the way, are you former military? If not "HOORA" anyway....
3

Ben JackJul. 22, 2012 - 01:24PM JST

I just want to add that Syria and groups like Hezbollah (possibly with the help of Iran) are the only things preventing "America" from expanding further.

No, they merely seem to be preventing dissenting opinions, with the help of Iran.

but many others don't, that this is not clarified because we are meant to believe that the Syrian military is killing innocent civilians.

The problem is that there are tens of thousands of Syrian refugees in Turkey now that were in fact escaping the Syrian attacks at the time. The militants were not nearly as violent or successful back then. What were the refugees running from, Ciao, bad dreams?
2

SuperLibJul. 22, 2012 - 02:33PM JST

NeverSubmit: The same is being reported all over Syria wherever the rebels go, looting, rape and arbitrary killings. I'm curious how any JT armchair analyst is able to verify the situation from several thousand miles Away.

What?
3

MadvertsJul. 22, 2012 - 03:31PM JST

"I just want to add that Syria and groups like Hezbollah (possibly with the help of Iran) are the only things preventing "America" from expanding further."

Hey we all appreciate honesty jonas. I guess you have to be true to your convictions to stand shoulder to shoulder with a despotic regime like Iran, or a terrorist organization like Hezbollah.
-1

Jonah FalconJul. 22, 2012 - 03:34PM JST

What were the refugees running from

Good question. There are countless reports, even in the western mainstream media, of people escaping Syria for fear of the so-called rebels. I think Never Submit might have provided a link to one such report. The rebels are the ones who have committed the most barbaric attacks in Syria over the past year, not the Syrian army.
1

MadvertsJul. 22, 2012 - 03:38PM JST

nandakandamanda,

"1. Massive killing until thousands more, perhaps tens of thousands more are dead. The victor? Anybody's guess. .2. Resignation of Assad and cabinet. So, it looks like No.1, doesn't it."

Even if the dictator took the unlikely option 2, I think Syria would be back to option 1 anyway.

Ignoring the wild conspiracies of our contributors that side with the Assad regime and its brutal quelling of the opposition - which has descended into civil war, I think this is the number one reason we have seen a total reluctance from the West to have any official military involvement in the conflict.

I'm wondering if Assad will cling on to the bitter end like Gadaffi and Saddam, or vanish to find sanctuary in Russia or China. Either way, the writing on the wall and his regime is finished.....
2

MadvertsJul. 22, 2012 - 04:39PM JST

"What were the refugees running from"

Doh, the civil war?
-1

NeverSubmitJul. 22, 2012 - 04:45PM JST

Ignoring the wild conspiracies of our contributors

Geopolitics is a lot more complex than the fairytale of Team USA=good guys and the other team (generally referred to as xxxx-regime)= bad guys.

Granted the mainstream media always tries to present the world in such simplistic dialectical terms but the situation is far more complicated than that and Syria is not the war of liberation that is being presented to us by the AP and Reuters.

The current administration in Syria has maintained power for 18 months in this instigated conflict because they are indeed popular among the general population. The citizens have seen what the rebels have done and they noticed that they are foreigners and the rebels are hated by the Syrians.

If the Syrian administration were as unpopular as we are told they would have collapsed a year ago, back then armchair analysts were dishing out the "any day now" mantra of the country collapsing.

Syria is no pushover and the army, police and people are firmly united. The defections have been paltry and out of 150 odd diplomats only 1 has taken the payout and defected. The same for the top brass, only a handful of semi-retired desk generals have accepted NATOs offer.

NATO totally overplayed their hand and even the Western media is starting to question what's going on here. Especially since the Jihadist nature of the rebels has come to light and also since NATO has confirmed that the rebel army is being commanded out of Turkey whereas they denied that even 6 months ago.

No one knows what will happen in the coming months but the rebels have run out of momentum and they're become ever more fractured and desperate, hence the spate of suicide bombings and other last gasp tactics.
1

Ben JackJul. 22, 2012 - 05:21PM JST

Good question.

Thanks. It was the Syrian government's heavy handed reaction to protests that started this. Refugees escaping to Turkey was a reaction to this.

There are countless reports, even in the western mainstream media, of people escaping Syria for fear of the so-called rebels.

Really, Ciao? Oops! This is from a month ago. These refugees were clearly escaping for fear of the Assad government. They say so.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304186404576387201308938800.html

Refugees Urge Action Against Syria Syrian refugees began protesting on Wednesday inside camps in southern Turkey, demanding that the world act against the regime in Damascus even as Syria's government called for them to return home.

Sorry, Ciao. It seems you do not speak for the Syrian refugees. They speak for themselves.
1

MadvertsJul. 22, 2012 - 06:05PM JST

"Geopolitics is a lot more complex than the fairytale of Team USA=good guys and the other team (generally referred to as xxxx-regime)= bad guys."

At some point you're going to have to accept what the rest of us know - that Syria is in a state of civil war and your geo-politics are being played out with both sides being armed by different players for their own interests.

Assad will be in hiding or dead soon, you're going to have to find another axe to grind.
1

SerranoJul. 22, 2012 - 06:50PM JST

There's no way Vlad Putin and Hun Jintao are going to let Baby Assad fall from power.
-2

NeverSubmitJul. 22, 2012 - 07:21PM JST

Ben, we can trade links endless, in case you doubt that reports contradicting yours exist here's a sample;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18930876

Jonah and the-grouch, thanks for your comments and feedback. I'd rather not turn this forum into our personal dialog but to answer your question, I do have military experience.

Part of that military experience helps me understand that the so-called "Free Rebel" army cannot possible be a band of neighborhood fathers who decided to stand up against their government. They clearly have training and experience, hence they're professional fighters brought in from various countries and they're backed up by US communications equipment and satellite support.
2

TamaramaJul. 22, 2012 - 07:44PM JST

NeverSubmit

If the Syrian administration were as unpopular as we are told they would have collapsed a year ago, back then armchair analysts were dishing out the "any day now" mantra of the country collapsing.

If any of the above posters have any confusion that what NeverSubmit is writing is intelligent, this should dispel that for you once and for all. How do you figure it would collapse? The regime controls the Army, as well as pretty much every other aspect of life in Syria. As the people objected to the regime, so were they shot. Oh but wait. You are maintaining that they weren't shot at all. That it was all the work of some other cloudy, misty organization that somehow just magically appeared in Syria with huge stores of weapons and began killing the people but the world somehow have just been duped into thinking it's the regime. Correct? It didn't start as simple street protests against the undemocratic Baathist rule which were violently put down by the regime, did it? That's all just western propaganda, isn't it?

Syria is no pushover and the army, police and people are firmly united

Wow. You are actually happy to post this tripe, are you? Are you in fact, Chinese or Russian?

No one knows what will happen in the coming months but the rebels have run out of momentum and they're become ever more fractured and desperate, hence the spate of suicide bombings and other last gasp tactics

The rebels will win, make no mistake. And when they do, the Russians and Chinese will have egg on their face as the people will remember them as having abandoned the people of Syria. There are already archived photos of Syrians holding up signs saying as much.
-3

NeverSubmitJul. 22, 2012 - 09:06PM JST

Are you in fact, Chinese or Russian?

Is my nationality important? Would you pay any more or less credence to what I have to say depending on the passport I happen to hold?

Personally I would never judge a person based on their race or nationality. I think it speaks volumes that you do.

Perhaps you're judging and disparaging the Syrian people also because they're Arabs, presumably different from you. I guess if roaming bands of thugs with AK47s were marauding around in your country you'd view it differently.

Despite your comments, I'll honestly say that the Syrians are a proud people with a long history and advanced culture. Syria is a developed secular nation where Muslims, Christians and Jews live (used to live) together in relative harmony. Religious freedom is guaranteed by the current administration and the human development index is quite high. Now, all that is being shattered on account of Jihadist extremists who are ravaging the civilian population and attempting to destabilize the country on behalf of their paymasters, NATO.

NATO doesn't care how many Syrians die (they don't and didn't care about Iraqis, Serbs or Afghanis either). Do you honestly think that Hillary Clinton loses sleep at night because Syrians are shedding blood. Honestly, do you believe that?

NATO's goal is to bring down a proud and stable country so the power balance in the region can shift in NATOs favor.
-1

SuperLibJul. 22, 2012 - 11:41PM JST

NeverSubmit: Absolutey, we get nothing but propaganda about Syria in the Western media. There's already plenty of evidence of Western media bias. The BBC is starting to report on the severity of the rebel army's abuses and crimes against humanity.

Well said.
-1

WolfpackJul. 23, 2012 - 12:01AM JST

NATO doesn't care how many Syrians die (they don't and didn't care about Iraqis, Serbs or Afghanis either). Do you honestly think that Hillary Clinton loses sleep at night because Syrians are shedding blood. Honestly, do you believe that?

NATO seemed to care about the Libyans - after they gave up their weapons of mass destruction. President Obama even said that he couldn't stand by while Ghadaffi slaughtered his own people. Apparently, he is more than willing to sit around while the Syrian people are slaughtered by Assad. What's more, due to Assad's support of international terrorism, his regime is an actual threat to the national interests of nations in the region and the US itself. Yet Obama cannot bring himself to do anything about it. There will be much more suffering in Syria due to NATO's (and other Middle Eastern nations) lack of resolve with regard to Assad.
0

TriumvereJul. 23, 2012 - 12:54AM JST

Wow. This thread is crazytown.
0

NeverSubmitJul. 23, 2012 - 06:16AM JST

Superlib: You're rearranging my sentences. I never wrote the paragraph that you're claiming I did.

I don't mind you quoting my comments but please keep my quotes in their original form.

Let's at least maintain some civility and respect. Personally, I always make a point to quote precisely and honestly, on this board I've never seen anyone resort to such a low as to alter material and repost it as a quote.

Even my other detractors (of which there are many) have maintained decency and have quoted my comments in their original form without alteration.
1

TamaramaJul. 23, 2012 - 08:37AM JST

NeverSubmit

Is my nationality important? Would you pay any more or less credence to what I have to say depending on the passport I happen to hold?

Personally I would never judge a person based on their race or nationality. I think it speaks volumes that you do.

sigh That was a tongue in cheek jibe to point out to you that your position on this matter is very much in line with the two countries currently vetoing resolutions on Syria, whom both have an appalling track record on human rights abuses, murder and the suppression of freedom and democracy. With Russia particularly making handy profits from selling military hardware to the Syrian army. I know you probably aren't, in fact. Russian or Chinese.....

Perhaps you're judging and disparaging the Syrian people also because they're Arabs, presumably different from you. I guess if roaming bands of thugs with AK47s were marauding around in your country you'd view it differently

I haven't done that at all. Strange you read that into my post. I tell you what I would view exactly the same - if my 'government' ordered the Army to shoot and kill people protesting in the streets here. But then it's not really the same kind of comparison at all, because we voted for, and chose our government where I live. Nobody voted for Assad, in an election, did they? They don't have the right in Syria.

Despite your comments, I'll honestly say that the Syrians are a proud people with a long history and advanced culture. Syria is a developed secular nation where Muslims, Christians and Jews live (used to live) together in relative harmony

Syrians are fantastic people - I loved my time there. Amongst other things I found them to be acutely aware of state, regional and world politics, and quite keen to openly discuss it with me as often as they could. In fact, I'd suggest they were some of the most finely tuned political observers I have met anywhere in the world.

Religious freedom is guaranteed by the current administration and the human development index is quite high. Now, all that is being shattered on account of Jihadist extremists who are ravaging the civilian population and attempting to destabilize the country on behalf of their paymasters, NATO.

The HDI puts them at 119 of 187, so calling it 'quite high' is a little disengenuous, don't you think? Their economy is poorly run and underperforming badly and their human rights performance is now, and has been for a long time, terrible. Above all, there is no democracy, and no right to move for it under the current regime. As they have tried to move for democracy, so have they died. You seem completely unwilling to acknowledge that this mess was created by the way Assad reacted to peaceful protest.

Who are these 'Jihadist extremists' you speak of and where can you provide legitimate evidence that they are funded by NATO?
2

SuperLibJul. 23, 2012 - 09:40AM JST

NeverSubmit: You're rearranging my sentences. I never wrote the paragraph that you're claiming I did.

So you never told us that the Western media is biased and shouldn't be trusted, then started using them yourself when a story comes along that you like? I'm just trying to find out where you stand. I suppose I could attach time stamps to your contradictions, but I can make the same point with less work.
0

YGHome3Jul. 23, 2012 - 06:49PM JST

---the two countries currently vetoing resolutions on Syria, whom both have an appalling track record on human rights abuses---

Arranging a rebellion in a foreign country, Syria, with the aim of replacing the government, an operation that costs tens of thousands of lives, is not exactly a manifestation of observing human rights.
0

Ben JackJul. 24, 2012 - 03:09AM JST

Ben, we can trade links endless, in case you doubt that reports contradicting yours exist here's a sample; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18930876

If we are going to "trade links" as you put it, perhaps they should be about the same subject matter, don't you think. Mine was about the opinions of Syrians. Yours is about the opinions of Syrians. As such, it does not contradict my link at all.

Now, where is that evidence about all those militants who are actually foreigners speaking foreign languages? Could it be you did not see my request these past tens of times?

Anyway, you are the only one that seems to think there are not two sides fighting in this. This is a Syrian civil war and both sides are Syrian. You have chosen Assad's side. That is clear. While I do not think foreign military action is the answer in Syria, I also cannot see anyway anyone can defend the Assad government. The mere fact you are so willing to give the Syrian government a free pass on what their history shows they have done should give anyone pause.
0

Ben JackJul. 24, 2012 - 03:15AM JST

You're rearranging my sentences. I never wrote the paragraph that you're claiming I did.

Ummm, SuperLib is not the only one to point this out to you. You go on and on about the media and then use it when it suits your purposes. The pattern sadly fits those of other conspiracy theory fans. The standard line is how governments and the media (usually western and even JT is sometimes thrown in the conspiracy mix) are all wrong. Yes, until they happen to fit into what you say we should believe, then you link us right up and tell us to believe that particular article or story only to go back right after that and tell us how bad the media is.

We see through that. We see the truth.
0

Ben JackJul. 24, 2012 - 03:17AM JST

I will agree you are generally rather civil and that is usually in groups of your type of thinking. I appreciate that aspect of your posting very much.
0

YGHome3Jul. 24, 2012 - 03:45AM JST

This is a Syrian civil war and both sides are Syrian

No. This is a superpower intervening in a foreign country (and mobilizing local people to further its objectives).
1

Ben JackJul. 24, 2012 - 10:39AM JST

This is a superpower intervening in a foreign country.

No, this is Assad's reaction to protests coming to bite him in the rump. He and his father have killed many a protester over the years. This time, however, it does not seem to be disappearing and being forgotten.
1

Ben JackJul. 24, 2012 - 01:34PM JST

ETA: If we are going to "trade links" as you put it, perhaps they should be about the same subject matter, don't you think. Mine was about the opinions of Syrians. Yours is about the opinions of Iraqis. As such, it does not contradict my link at all.