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  SezWho2 at 03:02 PM JST - 31st July

  TonyUS,

  We are a net importing nation. We do that because the imports are cheap or because we have vacated the markets. I don't claim imports are cheap. I claim good will be more expensive if we don't import.

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  Zen_Builder at 03:17 PM JST - 31st July

  I am with sezwho2.

  The US moved from a manufacturing country to one based on "services" and now try to export that ideology.

  One problem with what is they need "outside manufacturers" to sell those services cheaply. Yet, the outside manufacturing countries also want to move towards a service based industry.

  IMO, give it some time and few countries will be willing to manufacture stuff cheaply for others.

  And this is where globalization(may I say capitalism), etc falls short it relies on countries to be exploited but once they gain a certain wealth they want to exploit others. But what happens if they run out of countries to exploit?

  IMHO, capitalism is doomed as an ideology as it cannot sustain itself and needs outsiders do it for them.

  What is the real answer but stuff like the UN, UNSC, WHO, WTO, etc which are based on capitalism/imperialism are failing us now.

  Don't get me wrong but the US by pushing their views, etc set the seed for our downfall. Democracy never worked closest we got　to it is the swiss.

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  TonyUS at 03:45 PM JST - 31st July

  sezwho I claim net importing has cost us deeply and why we are in this shape we are in now. The circle has been broken. the population is the determining factor that demands products to match , production increases to produce these needs, people are employed to match the increase in production of goods. If population grows the need of goods increases, production increases, more jobs are created, BUT... now we have over 700 billion dollars of goods coming in to this country that is not being produced and in demand by the people here needing them. So you have an outside source feeding the demand of the population. That is 700 billion dollars worth of goods coming into this country. That’s over 700 billion dollars worth of goods coming in than that which is going out, completely disrupting the supply and demand balance of population and goods being used and in demand. Sure oil plays a part of this unbalance, but we do not buy oil from China and that right there is somewhere around 230 billion trade deficit. So the circle is broken and the products the population demands is not being produced by the population demanding it, so the jobs are not being created here where the population is using these products that is needed and in demand. And that could and should be creating the supply and the people jobs to produce the supply in demand. And these corporations love this freedom to go somewhere else and make items cheaper when they can ship it back and make three four, ten times the profit, but at who's expense. We see the differences in growth when we see 1.6 percent growth forecasted for the US next year and double digit growth in China. When we are looking at recession and China's worried about their over heated economy as they supply us with produces that could and should be produced here as our population has a demand for these products that are not being produced here. I mean it does not take some sort of magical wizardy to see there is something wrong with the picture here and for such a large supply of outside sources feeding our populations demands is doing great for those outside suppliers while we are looking at people loosing everything they got because we do not produce the goods we need here at home

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  SezWho2 at 06:00 PM JST - 31st July

  TonyUS,

  I don't quite follow your argument. I think it would be easier to follow if you used paragraphs.

  I agree with your observation that net importing has cost us deeply. I don't think that this conflicts with my contention that elimination of imports will have the effect of increasing prices. It might create jobs in the short term but I don't think we can produce and consume our way out of this problem.

  In my opinion the problem is that we are addicted to consumption. Consumption is a very good thing if we are channeling it into increased productivity. So, if I buy a cast iron soup pot and my wife uses it to make me a nourishing meal so that I can work the fields and sell my crops, that is productive consumption.

  On the other hand, if I instead buy a state of the art home computing system and stay up till after midnight downloading songs for my MP3 player or burning Seinfeld reruns, I doubt that I will be fully functional the next day. We spend an obscene amount of money on things that we don't need or on things that fail to produce the happiness that is advertised. We go into debt for it.

  I think that we as a nation need to take a timeout and consider what our habit implies about our lives. Obviously the effect of suddenly ceasing or cutting back on consumption would have an abrupt and undesirable effect on the economy. I think what we need is a different model for consumption, however. As Thoreau said, "Simplify! Simplify!"

  Our current president pushes consumerism for the world. I think consumerism is the problem we have. Addicting others to it might be beneficial to ourselves in the short time, but never in the long.

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  rajakumar at 08:05 PM JST - 1st August

  WTO best goals should be towards zero corporate tax, individual tax, sales tax and value added tax in all nations.

  Just look at sucess of some nations like UAE/Qatar with Emirates air,Al jazeera media, Burj Dubai high towers, Dubai Airport(20 percent growth ) and many other achievements.

  Taxes are not good for world trade, it just makes good people move their talents,somewhere else or to some other nation.

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  TonyUS at 02:29 PM JST - 3rd August

  I do not see taxes being the main issue with businesses moving overseas. I see grater profits from cheap labor currency values lower, and the costs including non-restrictions that include one, pollution controls along with large profits producing items pennies on the dollar, which is going on. When corporations are taking advantage of the market they deserve to be penalized especially when it is bring great hardships to the people. Look at the tax breaks these guys get here and they are still moving to China, India, and Vietnam etc.

  It is all about making as much profit as possible where ever they can achieve that result is where they will go, but the worse part is, they are allowed to ship it back here, while our jobs are being lost, at ridiculous profit margins, and if we are talking oil companies, then all we have to do is keep listening to the reports on their record after record quarterly profits as they also get tax breaks and collect record profits along with them. As long as these corporations are allowed to go forward with the system as it is, we are going to be in this situation we are in and people are finally saying enough with catering to these large corporations and letting get away with outsourcing and shipping their items back here making record profits as we continually loose manufacturing jobs and our lead in technology, which I had read a couple months ago about 80% of our technology is also centered outside the country... It can not continue or we will continue going the wrong direction as we have been. These last eight years we have been standing on these values and it has not worked as we see cost up, people loosing their homes.

  Sorry but we have tried that and it has not worked. The so called developing nations have too much of an advantage over us developed nations and it is costing us as a nation , big time in every way and we are seeing that is being proven over and over.

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  SezWho2 at 06:31 PM JST - 3rd August

  TonyUS,

  I think that what you are describing there is not a problem of the developing nations but one of US corporations who use developing nations to maximize their profits.

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  TonyUS at 12:12 PM JST - 4th August

  yes SezWho,,it is not the problem of developing nations, It is the problem of our own, that are developed nations and the freedom of open trading that has brought our economy to a point where we are over 700 billions of dollars in a trade deficit that has a very hard impact on our economy and job loss.

  I believe in balanced trade but at the some time do not agree with trading with China as they are not categorized as a nation based on freedom and huma rights which use to be our principles when choosing trading partners. Also have shown to be not our friends and only work to the advantage of their own prosperity at the expense of ours, and others. Then add in actions and decisions on international matters were the CCP supports those issues and governments which is in general oppose our resolve which again to strive for China’s own interests at the expense of thousands and millions of lives at the cost of human rights violations.. They are always placing themselves in opposition to our values and work, that is aimed at combating human right violations by these third world countries, and regimes of self empowerment, the same as what China is still today.. “self empowered leaders”. I also believe they have the sole hand in creating the N.Korean problem only to use towards us in the end, especially when it comes to Taiwan. A threat created by China as a indirect, or actually a direct threat by China to use in negotiations when dealing with western democracies, and then act as if they are an international [layer in which I see them as not.

  Does one actually believe China is doing anything that is not in their own interest, not the peoples of China’s interest but for the interest of those in power over the people. If anyone does, I hate to advise them, but they have been taken in by the most obvious deceptive leaders of power in the world today. What is a shame is that too many of our politicians are making big money from playing along with this game that is not only costing us our security and international standing around the world , but is costing the American people their homes and all that they have worked for all their lives. .

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  SezWho2 at 05:29 PM JST - 4th August

  TonyUS,

  Well, you'll have to count me among the numbers of people who have been taken in. I think China is acting in its own interest. However, I think it is acting in the interests of the Chinese people and not solely in the interest of its leaders.

  I don't think any country's leaders are immune from self-interest nor empowered to look out for the welfare of others at the expense of their own.

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  TonyUS at 01:52 PM JST - 5th August

  well it does not seem you are fully taken in from your response. :)

  But as long as China keeps policies that are not in line with ours, but constantly hampers the efforts to stop Iran, a major problem in the sense of security issues, not just in that region but a threat that could affect the whole world, then Dufur as for looking the other way while everyone is trying to put pressure on them to stop the killings and just like N. Korea…. That would not be an issue if China would have stepped in and told them to stop just as Iran with out support from China would be taking another direction on this nuclear issue that has everyone up in arms. If we were not sold out to China which we were not until Bush Jr. come along again, we could use economics and trade as a tool to push our ideals, but now it is the other way around, unfortunately. We have given China the means of its economical clout in the world today as they continually build their military with such rapid growing economics, which they would not be enjoying with out the so called active engagement policy the US has taken to begin with, At the same time China has in their minds that we, the US being their only future threat, so in my opinion China presents themselves as a threat and the more power they gather only makes them a greater threat in the future under this controlling power hungry type leadership that is in China still today. To bite the hand that has fed them, hmmm So this rift over trade policies and disagreements should not be of any surprise , but I am hoping it will increase to further the distance between the US and China and the trade will fade faster than what the future holds as costs increase in China to do business. China’s mentality in which the way they see us is not changing because our system and the openness Americans and other western nations enjoy will always be seen as a threat to those in power in China. I do not see a reasoning of further helping establish China as a super power when their directives do not coincide with our own and the system that China fights to keep as its norm is not what ourselves have always stood for or supported throughout history. It is not against the people of China, but also they have mental issues because of the system that has been in place and forced upon them over the last 59 years that prevents many from knowing the truths of history about us here in the US, and what is just as tragic is, they are starved of information about their own country and their own history... all because of the CCP and their continual fight to stay in control over the people and to keep them suppressed so they do not become a threat to the leadership, the self proclaimed leadership. This WTO issue could be of a greater tool towards aligning China with the rest of the developed countries, but only if China has something to loose, which has been the ONLY way China has made changes within the country,, Forced from outside.

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  SezWho2 at 08:37 AM JST - 6th August

  TonyUS,

  Thank you for your thoughts. I don't think a "black ships" approach is going to work on China and I don't think that the US is in any position to take serious economic sanctions against it--not unless Americans are willing to do some serious belt-tightening. Time and time again, we have refused to do that with respect to energy where we are talking about giving up things to lessen our deficits and to weaken the power of the nations who supply our deficits. It seems to me that a similar giving up of things is the necessary consequence of what you are suggesting here.

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  TonyUS at 12:46 PM JST - 6th August

  Sez, it is leadership that can take care of an over spending government and concentration on becoming self reliant, which I believe the left will do if elected, instead of the right that has brought us again and again in debt to foreign lands or hands. It was under control 15 years ago up until 7 years ago and then all went crazy once again. Get a handle on trade and the unfair policies and the US could come back strong along with the dollar. The world was not always based on China you know, and it does not have to be now, only if we let it which we have because of greed and the wealthy forming the policies…

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  SezWho2 at 06:19 PM JST - 6th August

  TonyUS,

  Well, I would like to see the Democrats win if only to give a vote of no-confidence to the Republicans. I'm not sure that the Democrats are going to cut spending and emphasize self-reliance, however. Traditionally that has been the Republican deal although they seem to have gotten a bit off track of late.

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  TonyUS at 11:36 AM JST - 7th August

  I think more than lately.. We could go back to Reagan , trillion dollar deficit, Bush senior, continued that, Clinton cleaned it up , then Bush Jr, again

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  SezWho2 at 08:54 AM JST - 8th August

  TonyUS,

  You're right about that, of course. Yet, even during the Reagan years the country was still grumbling about "tax-and-spend" Democrats, so the perception was that Republicans were financially responsible. In other words, the image was that they were spending necessary dollars to defeat The Evil Empire and not frivolous dollars on welfare queens. I think Clinton began to change that conversation, but primarily as a political strategy, not necessarily because the Democrats had suddenly been transformed.

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