A-ee shin-koo zat-to jiss-oo izu a berry in-to-re-su-tin-gu poin-to.

Until the preposterous katakana system of systematically representing any foreign word as if it were a Japanese one is discontinued, generations of Japanese will continue to be handicapped from birth with an inability to pronounce the world language.

Learn a word right (and have people be able to understand you) or use a Japanese word. It's common sense.

Which is why it won't happen here.

Right, I'm off for a sarada and a kohi now.

Wotto a kanto.

 

If you want to see the problem in Asia, go to www.engrish.com and you'll see what the real problem is. Unless you are a native speaker teaching english, the pronunciation will not be very good. Kind of like me trying to teach Russian. I can't speak it fluently, so why should I teach it.

 

I think Katakana is the crippling system for Japanese to learn english and pronounce it correctly. Engrish.com is my Japanese husband's source of entertainment. He is at level of native english speaker.

 

Wottock hunt: you have hit the nail on the head. And what a lovely word! ("preposterous")

 

I do n-o-t understand his point. What I can say is that many Aemericans speak "sloppy" English. Full of phrases, idioms and Colliqael expressions.

For example after several days of wet rainy weather their are many mosquitoes in Florida. I go to the barber shop and say

I SAY: Boy, a lot of mosquitoes out their.
BARBER: I hate those "critters" to.

 

She's wrong. I have no trouble understanding English, no matter what the pronunciation. I'm not a native speaker.

 

It isn't just the katakana.
It isn't just sloppy American idiomatic expressions.
It isn't just sloppy British idiomatic expressions.
It isn't just sloppy Australian idiomatic expressions.
It isn't just the poorly/improperly/un trained Eikaiwa teachers.

These are just some of the factors. But I do agree--pronunciation is key to understandability. It took me about 5 tries to realize that "tamankusu" was "Tom Hanks"

 

Leave it to a Japanese English professor to not only miss the point but to wallow in self-pity. She encapsulates Japan's attitude toward English perfectly in that quote: (a) understanding and communication are about everyone sharing knowledge about all the aspects involved (context, situation, 'proper' pronunciation, etc), so therefore only exchanging the correct pronunciation of the correct words can communicate meaning, (b) diversity is bad because it bastardizes and complicates things, and there can be nothing redeeming about fresh blood or ideas (c) we poor Japanese, forced by others to learn this arcane system of communication thru no choice of our own, (d) we'll grudginly accept our place in the world by acknowledging English's use as a lingua franca, but secretly hope it doesn't last.
When even the professors don't get it, you know that this country's approach to the outside world in general and communication in particular is hopeless.

 

..that such a sweeping statement from an academic needs to be backed up. To prove her hypothesis, she would need to demonstrate (1) that significantly different pronunciations are rising up in the world, and (2) that these hinder mutual intelligibility across a wide spectrum of English users, both native and non-native. Pretty close to impossible, non?

 

What about "Osaka ben", "Kumamoto ben" and any other "naninani ben" in Japan?

And about katakana. I know that japanese that are learning chinese DONT' use katakana. They learn whit romanized pronunciations. Can anyone explain to me why japanese "english teachears" keep using katakana?

 

..but the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it sounds. First, he posits a long-shot theory, that English as a lingua franca faces issues that threaten that status. By itself, to propose such an idea isn't necessarily bad or wrong, but it flies in the face of almost any evidence you can imagine. Next, he wraps the noose around his neck by providing a single specific cause or mechanism for this long-shot theory: pronunciation, ignoring any other aspects of language, one of humanity's most complicated aspects.

 

I never call a mosquito a critter, unless I precede the word with "nasty little... " as in "nasty little critters." "Nasty little critters" can refer to a variety of annoying things such as mosquitoes, gnats, "no-see-ums" (tiny little biting insects, almost invisible to the naked eye), scorpions, and the brown recluse and black widow spiders. Unmodified, the word "Critter" (actually a corruption of "creature") usually refers to domestic four-legged animal. In fact, I often refer to my "herd" of cats (I have 9) as "the critters." BUT that's not important really -- the important factor is that worldwide, there are many different pronunciations of English. Ya see, those who are not native speakers of English usually never master the pronunciation; that's what we call "speaking with an accent; even those of us who are native English speakers speak English with a myriad of accents ourselves." Brits speak (and spell) English differently from the way Americans do (Brits have a "British accent") and the Ozzies, many of them descendants of working class Brits, still have a touch of the mid-19th century working class England in their pronunciation. Canadians are different still, yeah, eh! But we manage to understand one another just fine. Sometimes it takes a little work, maybe a request for clarification, but we manage.

 

Good points, but in a way it's not really the point...J-academics aren't thinking about 'communication' when they discuss pronunciation. All this talk about pedantic points like pronunciation by the Japanese are really just code for the fact that the current int'l use of English as a lingua franca flies in the face of the Japanese world-view: that people and their languages are compartmentalized and someone from Mumbai being able to communicate with someone from Nairobi is almost unfathomable. The Japanese also feel left out and are either looking for excuses as to why they are 'different' or why the current order won't persist. Either way, as usual with the Japanese elite, it's always about them, and Japan's inability to take its place among the world's nations can be blamed entirely on their irresponsible, stodgy, anti-intellectual elites.

 

Not sure how some posters got the impression that someone called "Katsuaki" is a woman, but never mind...

Pronunciation is important - it's difficult for many Japanese to make themselves understood in English among people who aren't accustomed to the "katakana-ised" pronunciation. However, that's not to say that everyone should learn a single standard form of pronunciation (I remember a British ALT friend of mine telling me that one of her students got marked down in an English speaking competition because the student spoke with a British, rather than American, accent). Nevertheless, I feel that it's preferable if students of English don't learn strong regional accents, at least while they're at the basic-to-intermediate level...

 

Where does this professor get the idea that English pronunciation is becoming 'more and more diverse'?
English pronunciation has always been 'diverse'. Compare English as she is spoken by an Oxford graduate, a Cockney road taxi driver, a Somerset farmer, an Indian doctor, a Texan oil magnate, a Chicago waitress, an Aussie miner, etc., etc., etc. All different and sometimes verging on the mutually unintelligible, but we all manage to get by.
If we all spoke the same English life would be a whole lot more boring.

The 'survival of English as a lingua franca' depends not so much on 'appropriate instruction of pronunciation' (i.e. bring back Henry Higgins?) as in English continuing to be the native language of the world's more dynamic economies. If you want to play the game, you gotta play by the rules and that means using English. The survival of non-English speaking businessmen depends on their learning to handle 'non-standard' pronunciation. You can't demand that the English-speaking world conforms to the single pronunciation system you happen to have learned.

 

"You can't demand that the English-speaking world conforms to the single pronunciation system you happen to have learned."

Try telling that to the Japanese. I feel for them in a way, because their education system and conformist society have poorly equipped them to deal with communication in general (even in their own language) and a diverse and varied language like English in particular. Zeroing in on pronunciation enables them to maintain their parochial worldview and blame on others their inability to function in and communicate with most of the world.

 

I found cleo's opinion most reasonable and thoughtful as well. I entirely agree with "If we all spoke the same English life would be a whole lot more boring".

 

Cuz I'm going Francophone.

 

Languages evolve to suit the needs of the speakers. If speakers cease to need a language, it will naturally stagnate and die off. No problem. This has been a natural force in languages since the time when people started using them. Linguists see this as negative, because they mistakenly borrow the ecologists` mantra of strength through diversity. Languages are often referred to as living things, but this is mere anthropomorphism. Language is a tool, and just as technology evolves, so to languages. Languages do not need each other for their mutual benifit. Sure, linguistic diversity is interesting, and can appeal to our sense of the exotic, but that`s about it. It`s not actually useful.

Giving pronunciation such importance is merely a way for academics and their ilk to pump themselves up, and give their branch of study more power. It adds one more floor to their Ivory Tower. In addition to this, linguaphiles often misunderstand a key point: they can`t make everybody who needs a language grow to love it to the same extent that they do.

Misunderstandings happen al the time, even between people who speak the same dialect. What`s needed is merely the ability to solicit and give clarification of meaning. It`s much easier, and more practical than teaching some kind of unified system of pronunciation. Besides, native English speakers who deal regularly with non-nativesusually realize that limiting their use of colloquialisms is advantageous for communication.

The problems that some teachers encounter in Japan are not because the Japanese use English badly. Rather it`s because they use Japanese, and not English. They need to be taught what is English and what is not. And part of teaching what English is not, involves the elimination of the use of katakana.

Anyway, what the professor is doing by focussing on pronunciation is diverting people from the real point of learning English. It`s not about the language per se, it`s about using this particular language for communication with others of differeing backgrounds. It`s a tool, a skill. That`s how a lingua franca develops.

Tribalism and aesthetics are anathema to good communication. What this professor needs to do, is to start thinking how he can better teach people to use the language for communication, not how to teach people to speak what he considers beautiful English.

 

The professor appears to be talking about a proliferation of non native pronunciation of English, not the already diverse native accents. And his take on pronuciation appears to be more about rhythm than uniform vowel sounds. Have a read:

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200605120184.html

 

Here we have yet another example of a professor who learned things one way and insists that everyone does, and her quotation proves that it is not only outdated, but that she can't understand or communicate the way things are. How is English pronunciaton becoming more and more diverse??? Sure, more Japanese may be going to OZ instead of the US, and so pronunciation differences here are growing (add in Katakana-Eigo and it's a whole new world!), but it's not like other ENglish speaking countries just sprung into being!

Finally, as has been posted above, Katakana should be eliminated entirely from curriculums as a segue-way to ENglish pronunciation; it is nothing but problematic. THe argument that it helps people is entirely wrong. If you start teaching them the proper pronunciation and phonetics from the beginning there will be no need to make things easier. Teach them Katakana pronunciations first and you will forever be 'katakanizing' yourself in order to be understood. Oh, and stop adding stupid new words from English and then trying to use them as though they were native to the language!

Food that is not 'Fast food' is not "Slow food". And though I like to relax, I don't enjoy "Slow Tourism!"

 

These are the utterances of someone with a lack of imagination in tackling the interesting, albeit challenging reality of world of limitless English accents. Besides, the very definition of "lingua franca" implies a fluidity and evolution of language, accepting that it is a combination of not one, but many different cultural interpretations of the language. Where does he think English came from anyway? Does he think it sprung up overnight? No, he knows perfectly well it's an amalgamation of languages from all over Europe, incorporating elements of languages from the world over.

With my American accent, I've never had trouble making myself understood with my British or Aussie mates, and likewise, I've never really had that much of a difficulty understanding them (with the strong exception of a pal from Yorkshire, but he swears that's just him).

Furthermore, in my life, I've encountered English speakers from China, India, Vietnam, Taiwan, Finland, Switzerland, Germany, and Italy, and despite each one speaking with distinctly different pronunciations, I was able to understand them and they me.

This "lingua franca" red herring is just a poor cover for inability to adapt.

It reminds me of the hassle I sometimes get in elementary school classrooms from homeroom teachers who tell me that the material I'm teaching the kids (e.g., phonics or how to ask if someone likes, has, knows, or wants something) is too difficult, even though the kids are clearly not only getting it, but retaining it, and using it outside of the class. The sad truth of the matter is that it's not too difficult for the kids, but rather too difficult for the teacher, because of whatever reason, be it due to old habits, that persistent Japanese irrational fear of English, or simply because the teacher sucks at language learning.

Whatever the case, it's just another example of a never-wrong sempai in Japanese society trying to cover up his personal inadequacies with half-baked warnings about what will happen if anyone else tries to learn, speak, or do anything in a manner that deviates one iota from the way he had to do it when he was young. This man should be ashamed for promoting such drivel.

When Professor Togo comes out with a treatise admonishing Japanese for using their regional dialects and destroying the mother tongue (Kansai-ben, for example), then maybe I'll give some thought to what he has to say. But until then...

 

Yeah, ya dun wun' J-people messing with me engrish and talkin' all funny do ya....betta' learn ta speak the Queen's language J-lads or ya neva' gonna unda'stand why J-birds chase us gaijin lads.

 

Japanese are always blaming when they can't do something perfect. When they do something better than other people, they rub it in our noses.

 

I read the article (thank you for the link, pachisuro), and I'm afraid the good professor still comes off as someone who has finally realised that there is more to English than what is in the Crown textbooks - and he finds it frightening.
From the article -

He misses the point. There are and always have been as many varieties of English as there are English speakers, native and non-native.
When I first moved up to uni in London, I was a Lancashire lass living next door to a Geordie and sharing with a Scot who had a Brummie boyfriend whoe best mate was from Devon. The Geordie shared with a girl from the Home Counties, and nearby we had a Welsh girl. All from the same United Kingdom, not a non-native speaker among us, and not a one of us able to communicate with the others without a good bit of effort. We all understood the Home Counties girl (coz she spoke like them posh peepul on the telly), but she understood none of us. The Welsh girl and the Scottish girl both had different music sheets to the rest of us and to each other. The rest of them wondered how the Geordie and I managed to talk with what they claimed was only half the necessary vowels, and none of them long enough. We all marvelled at how the Brummie (actually quite a brilliant bloke once you got to know him) had managed to get into uni with such an obvious brain and speech defect.
To add to the mix, another friend from Kent who spoke very posh had parents who spoke English that was grammatically and idiomatically impeccable, but with the strongest German accents you could imagine.
After a while though, we all found we had no trouble at all communicating with each other. The human ear is a marvelloous instrument.

Again from the article -

Not so. If people aren't familiar with the accent of the people they're trying to do business with, instead of acclimatising themselves to the differences in pronunciation and intonation, are they going to go and each learn a whole new language just so's they can get the pronunciation right this time??
Which does the good professor think is going to be easier?

me:"You can't demand that the English-speaking world conforms to the single pronunciation system you happen to have learned."

jacqueshellaque: "Try telling that to the Japanese."
I do, often! I'm often asked to check language teaching materials and these often include pronunciation questions, as in 'Which word has a vowel sound the same as the first word in the list?' or 'Which word in the list has the stress on the nth syllable?' - as if that helps anyone understand spoken English. What gets me is that often I have to look the words up in the dictionary to check the pronunciation, because the word they want to be the correct answer isn't the word I would choose, or there is no correct answer, or there are two or more correct answers. Usually I find they want only Standard American pronunciation (is there such a thing?) to be the only one their students learn, which seems to me to be a disservice to the students since they will probably be using their English to speak to people who are not Standard Americans. When it comes to stress and intonation things are even more all over the place, and they don't like it when I point out that the whole exercise is less than useless.
Having students listen to as many different accents as possible, and giving them the chance to actually talk, will do them a lot more good than poring over iffy phonetic symbols in a workbook.

 

katsuramen -
Interesting that you should assume TuskCracker to be a brit.
From the short piece he wrote, I took him for an American.
clues:
Brits don't say barber shop, we say barber's.
We tend not to use boy as an exclamation.
We don't consider idiom to be 'sloppy' English.

OK Tusky, out with it.
Which are you?
:-)

 

what language is he talking about really? Every language has accents of tone and pronunciation, even Japanese with every 'ben out there. Makes them reflect where they are from as they are designed to do by the human culture over thousands of years anywhere in the world.

German has 250 kinds, French many versions, English sure. To me this is appreciation of a fine wine, in all their bouquets and colours, their particular special history, like a living document reflecting its very people. This is not standard to a single colour and smell. How would the world be? Sounds like big brother a bit. Would we even be interested in learning Japanese if it were so? I doubt it.

Esperanto has about 2 million speakers. It's entirely man-madeup language as a clear romance-language type. Safe pronunciation, safe spelling. Easy to learn. If Togo-san's lamenting were really a problem then Esperanto would have taken off. I would recommend he learn it. I think more people know Klingon though! Poor Togo-san...

There are trunks and there are branches, but without the branches the trunk cannot survive and thrive. Without the trunk the branches would truly seperate in all directions. Trees plant seeds before they die too as roots for other languages. (Latin etc)

Togo-san's comments just remind me he lives in a still moderately unilingual country feeling stressed by the need to understand something different.

I'm sorry he thinks it's a problem. The rest of the world is having fun.

English+Japanese = Engrish, which is a language and three letter acronym hell that I am increasingly not understanding. This is a root language (English) married with another root language (Japanese) producing a new language, not unlike Saxon+German+French = English. We are witnessing a new root forming. Who knows how it will grow?

 

instead of "without branches the trunk cannot survive and thrive" rather, a trunk can just make new branches ;) fits better ;)

 

Cleo, you continue to Jekyll and Hyde yerself to death. I mean you come out with a very good post at 15:02, much of which I agree with. Then, it's off on some childish jealous rant on America...

"a disservice to the students since they will probably be using their English to speak to people who are not Standard Americans."

How do you know that ? You don't ! Many J's study English for traveling abroad... stats show the most popular destination is ... Hawaii ! America, the last time I checked.

As for Tusky bein' American or Brit ? Does it really matter ? As an American, am I forbidden from using British terms... no more referring to my buds as "mates" !? Must I avoid Aussie speak and not "toss another on the barbie." I can longer discuss bad luck in terms of "hard lines" like my scottish pals ? Cleo, what gives ? Is it so necessary for you to know what country posters are from ? To me it has nothing to do with the topic of the post... something about Japan. Focus on that please, leave that underlying current of racism there in the dark... where it belongs !