JAPAN NEWS AND DISCUSSION
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bam_boo
Yubaru, for the discussions sake it would be good to argue the details, and I would be glad to hear them, but of course this is not the right thread for that discussion...
There's no doubt that some people in Okinawa benefit from the bases, but Okinawa as a whole has not at all benefited from the US bases.
To the contrary it will take Okinawa decades to overcome the sleazy system that has been imposed on Okinawa by the US military and the central government in Tokyo against the will of the majority of Okinawans and the fact that some Okinawans are partaking in that system doesn't relieve the US and Tokyo from their responsibility towards establishing it.
Saying Okinawa has benefited from this carrot and stick system is cynical as Okinawans didn't have much of a choice in establishing it and as such are not at all in the position to be happy about the benefits, except you see Okinawas as subordinates who should be happy about the master giving them food.
The current system with US bases that have been forced onto Okinawa deprive Okinawa of a self-determined, democratic future which is based on values created by Okinawans themselves.
Only a drastic change of the status quo will make it possible for Okinawans to realize a better future for their islands. Preventing the Henoko relocation and getting rid of MCAS Futenma are two huge milestones on that path to a better future for Okinawa.
If Okinawans choose to host US bases in an open and truly democratic process, based on proper information and clearly outlined choices, I would accept that, even my belief is that any kind of military facilities in Okinawa mean more of a threat to island then a protection.
There is no way to protect a place like Okinawa by military action in a meaningful way if a powerful enemy should ever again chose to attack the island and the ones who know that best are Okinawans themselves with their horrifying experience during WW2.
Posted in: Okinawa fears revised plan may leave Futenma where it is
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bam_boo
Yubaru, Do you want to deny that Okinawan politics and economy have been deeply influenced by the budgetary carrot-and-stick policy of the central government in Tokyo? I don't think that there's any lack of evidence for Tokyo's bullying and pressuring approach towards Okinawa.
Sad is that quite a number of Okinawans think that they have no choice then to eat the carrots and avoid the stick... but I can empathize with that.
Shall we go on small tour around Okinawa to take a look at the most obvious results of what the Tokyo 'carrot and stick' budgets do to the Okinawan environment?
We could start in Yanbaru, in the north of the island, with the Rin-do, a massive network of completely useless forrest roads that criss cross the unique forrest. Then we can find completely non-competitive pineapple fields that were created by flattening hilltops with comfort money from Tokyo.
Close by we have the huge dam projects, that are justified with growing water consumption and water shortage, while wells with marvelous quality drinking all over the island are drying out because of too much or bad planned urban development.
When we arrive in Henoko, carrot and stick jumps at us in the form of a huge newly built Okinawa National College of Technology... how the heck did this get to Henoko a sleepy village with 1000 some inhabitants? Because of its wonderful nature and the nice beaches close by? Sorry for being a bit cynical... Further down road into Henoko a hugely oversized Community center stick out of the small single-family homes (it makes sense to check its size on google maps as it really is HUGE), another carrot that was prepared to corrupt Henoko citizens who at first were largely agains the new base on their beach.
Just to compare the size of public facilities of Okinawan villages with US bases and the ones without is rather appalling.
We are just getting to the center of the Island and I could go on quite endlessly, but this would go beyond the scope of this discussion. I think you can get what I want to say.
There is a growing number of Okinawans who are fed up with such a system, even it can mean short-term economical challenges for them, but they feel that on the long run Okinawan well-being is dependent on their own ability to create things with real values.
To stop the Henoko construction is a huge step in right direction. To get Futenma closed soon will be the next and I believe it won't be as hard as the former.
Posted in: Okinawa fears revised plan may leave Futenma where it is
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bam_boo
smithinjapan, as all available polls and all other verifiable information shows us that the vast majority of Okinawans want the US bases drastically reduced I would say your statement is a false assertion.
I have asked you and others who did post similar claims in former threads to corroborate such claims and haven't seen one piece of verifiable information that could support your wired assertion that a majority of Okinawans are welcoming the status quo of US military presence in Okinawa.
Posted in: Okinawa fears revised plan may leave Futenma where it is
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bam_boo
Yubaru, your comment shows that you don't really understand the situation in Okinawa.
First of all the big chunk of the US base budget comes from the central government, plus the comfort budget that Tokyo is paying towards Okinawa since the reversion... so the Japanese government has to pay twice for the US military and to keep Okinawans well-behaved and quiet. And you can be sure that if there'd be no bases on Okinawa the central government wouldn't dare to pay such amounts to Okinawa. You just have to look at other underdeveloped areas in Japan to know...
Second, what you call depressed prefecture hasn't changed at all if seen in relation. Where did the huge 'comfort budgets' that Tokyo poured into Okinawa get the prefecture?
Did Okinawa climb up the wealth ladder in relation to other prefectures? No, not at all. Okinawa is still the prefecture with lowest income and, according to central Japanese standards, with the by far lowest level of education, etc. etc.
Why is that so?
Because the money that was poured into Okinawa up to now had just one very clear aim: to make Okinawans dependent and quiet (if not more directly to bribe them). The money was not allocated in a way that would empower Okinawans. Of course there are many Okinawans who benefit quite a lot from those comfort budgets, but those are not necessarily the ones who would guide Okinawa towards a brighter future. The ones that profited most were filthy politicians and their kin, usually low level constructions companies that know how to pour concrete, but not much more. The money with it's focus on unnecessary civil engineering and impressive but rather contentless facilities, has actually prevented Okinawa from becoming ready for the future and kept a big number of low level, low income jobs.
About the Futenma base, that Okinawas worry about it remaining open longer is understandable, but it will take less effort to get Futenma closed then it did to stop Henoko.
I believe it will be closed rather sooner then later, as it is unjustifiable to keep it open, I just very much hope that there will be no major accident before that happens...
Posted in: Okinawa fears revised plan may leave Futenma where it is
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bam_boo
Great news for Okinawa! Finally the central and super powers are acknowledging reality in Okinawa!
Not that anyone in Tokyo or Washington was really empathizing with Okinawans, but at least they got the message and apparently are afraid of wasting money on an unpredictable cause.
If what started as a budgetary consideration turns out to be a sustainable position (not clear yet as the Japanese government is trying to get by with a head-in-the-sand policy), Okinawan's democratic movement will see a huge boost. To experience that a citizens grass-roots-movement can get somewhere against all the odds should be truly inspiring!
The reduced footprint of US military in Okinawa will not create even the slightest geopolitical insecurity in the region. We're not living in an era where some dozen more or less fighter jets or some 10.000 more or less troops will make a difference in protecting any piece of land, at least regarding conflicts between super powers.
Of course the commitment of the US to protect Japan makes a difference (like with Taiwan), but regarding Okinawa the Chinese conduct would have to change drastically to have to resort to any kind of power display from the side of the US. The conflict around the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands is about rather obvious interests and not as scary as some want to make it look like. Though it is rather unpleasant, there's nothing unusual about a China that is displaying its growing military power in its own geopolitical region. No reason to hide under the table, at least for the time being, but of course geopolitical situations can change.
In any case what ever kind of military conflict centering on Okinawa would be disastrous for the island, as 2WW has shown us in such a horrifying way, and should be avoided at any cost. Or to be more bold, it would still be 100 times better for Okinawa to become a part of China then to see the island eradicated in military action.
Posted in: Japan, U.S. discussing revised plan for relocating Marines from Okinawa
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bam_boo
smithinjapan
we had that discussion here before. There are numerous polls from various channels (Okinawan news papers, Japanese news papers) that all show the same results: depending on how you ask between 75% and 95% of the Okinawan population want's much less or no US bases their island and are clearly against the relocation of Futenma within the prefecture. I have posted various links to the polls in former posts.
From all objectifiable information I have access to there's no doubt what the vast majority of Okinawans long for.
I have never seen any signs of a 'silent pro US base majority' in Okinawa (except maybe for the wishful thinking displayed in the numerous posts of US military related people here at JT), but if you have any evidence of such please go ahead and show us where you get your data from... I'm open to discussing any somehow objectifiable information regarding the topic.
the US helping Okinawans to survive? You want to say that without the US military Okinawans wouldn't exist anymore?
Unfortunately even the so powerful US military can't prevent wars from happening and in certain cases a US military presence triggers even more violence then it prevents. You can be sure Okinawans would have survived without any US military on their island like they have for centuries. Okinawans have lived for centuries with the 'Chinese threat' and they have done so much better and more peaceful then since their quite disastrous incorporation into the Japanese nation.
very nicely said. I couldn't have said it better... yes, very unfortunately at the moment it's not their island and Okinawans have no choice...
except they stand up against the odds and make democracy work for their own benefit, much like they are doing now.
Posted in: Protesters block delivery of U.S. base environment report to Okinawa government
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bam_boo
@ 2020hindsights
it's not 'only a report', it's an environmental assessment which was ordered by the Japanese government to fulfill the purpose of making it possible to build a base into a pristine marine environment.
Anyone who believes such an assessment in Japan is unbiased lacks proper information about how such things work in Japan.
The agencies and companies involved in the assessment know very well what they ought to do and they know what will happen if they submit an assessment that is against the government order... they won't ever again get an assignment in Japan.
Some weeks ago we heard a Japanese government official involved with the assessment saying it was a rape towards the Okinawan people, and unfortunately he knew exactly what he was talking about.
Posted in: Protesters block delivery of U.S. base environment report to Okinawa government
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bam_boo
timtak, european and american families used to be different as well. Society is changing, lifestyle is changing and so is parenting.
Even in the west 'shared custody' or the access of both divorced parents to the child is a new concept and it took a while before it started working there as well.
From my european experience I would say that many parents have learned that it is possible to overcome seemingly adamant aversions because the law forces them two.
I would even go so far as to say that in my country there is a new culture of divorce which kind of requires divorced parents to get it together for the good of the child. Many divorced parents even manage to become friends again and to organize the future of their children in a friendly atmosphere together. If this happens divorced children can have as happy a life as non-divorced and they often are even feel privileged to have more custodians then non-devorcees, if they come along well with the new partners of their 'real' parents.
Also Japanese parents can learn that the responsibility of being a parent far exceeds the responsibility that two adult people have to take for each other.
Posted in: Clinton urges Japan to take action on child abduction issue
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bam_boo
OssanAmerica, were do you get your data from? According to wikipedia the island were not taken by Japan until 1895, because Japanese diplomats were afraid to arouse Chinese anger, thus implicitly admitting that they knew China had knowledge of and interest in the Islands.
Here the wiki text:
YuriOtani,
where do you get yours from? I couldn't find any material indicating the the islands ever were part of the Ryukyu kingdom.
If you admit that they are disputed zones then you should say the same to Japanese leaders.
Posted in: China sends patrol ship to disputed waters
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bam_boo
You are wrong, Riffraff, there has been a plebiscite in Nago city in 1997 in which Nago citizens clearly voted against the construction of the new US base in Henoko.
Posted in: U.S. Congress cuts funds to move Marines from Okinawa to Guam
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bam_boo
Riffraff,
So why do you think Okinawan politicians are able to 'use Futenma as a running platform'? Because Okinawans are so happy with the 38 US military facilities on their island?
Riffraff, do we get you right, you see Okinawans as: easy to manipulate, not able to understand what is good for them, not ready for democracy folks, eh?
I suppose they need someone like YOU to tell them what is good for them?
Posted in: U.S. Congress cuts funds to move Marines from Okinawa to Guam
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bam_boo
lincolnman, I don't say I speak for the "majority of Okinawans", I speak for myself only, but I tell you what the majority of Okinawans have very clearly expressed on many occasions.
I have posted links to various polls and we all know what Okinawans have voted for in the last prefectural and town hall elections.
And we also know that Nago citizens have voted against the Henoko relocation in the only direct plebiscite on the topic up to date.
You consistently try to evade this reality and you haven't showed us one piece of evidence that could corroborate your weird theory that a majority of Okinawans might agree with relocating Futenma within their prefecture.
You try to filibuster us here with all kinds of side issues to distract us from the most crucial point of this discussion, the wish of the Okinawan people.
It's not a secret and it's not difficult to understand, if you live in Okinawa you just have to open your eyes, talk to people, read the newspapers, follow the public discussions, then you will know how the vast majority of Okinawas feel about the massive conglomeration of US bases in their prefecture and about the plan to destroy another part of their precious marine environment to build another base.
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bam_boo
lincolnman, we heard your funny elitist argument many times before, but we haven't seen any evidence from your side to back up your ridiculous claims that only a minority of Okinawans oppose the current Futenma Henoko relocation. There is absolutely no doubt about what the vast majority of Okinawans of all walks of life strive for:
the closure of Futenma without any relocation facility within the prefecture.
There are numerous polls from various media channels that clarify this, but living in Okinawa you don't even need to look at such polls, except you are working for the US military and need to cheat yourself into believing that you are doing something good for Okinawans.
Believe me, lincolnman, we (and I believe this is true for all who argue for the Okinawan side here) are all doing our best to get Futenma closed asap without Henoko's nature being destroyed in term and with every step that Japan is moving towards becoming a real democracy we are getting closer to a 'workable solution' that is acceptable for the majority of Okinawans.
Btw, you are talking about 'workable solutions' from your military convenience point of view, me and others here are talking about 'workable solutions' in terms of fulfilling the will of a majority of Okinawans.
If your military gets clear instructions from politics, it will find a workable solution without building a replacement facility in Henoko as it has managed to resolve much more complicated logistical problems before.
And nobody in Okinawa will be shivering with fear of a Chinese attack on Okinawa even if the US military presence would be reduced to Okuma Rest Center.
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bam_boo
It is solely the US military that is pressuring to keep the Futenma base open, no one else, not even the GOJ. That is basically an internal US military decision which creates potentially deadly situations for citizens living in the vicinity of the base on a daily basis.
Lincolnman, I'm afraid that you don't even get the cynicism towards Okinawans in your posts, but surely expressing such opinions helps a lot with speeding up the process of getting the US military off the island.
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bam_boo
I just pray that there won't be any more major accidents caused by the US military before that happens.
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bam_boo
Again your US sided view. Anti-FRF have a plan too and are acting on that plan since years. You may not like the idea, but please note that not talk but action on the side of the anti-US base movement has, against all odds, stalled the progress in Henoko for almost a decade. And brought the US and GOJ on the edge of having to openly admit that their policies towards Okinawa are everything but democratic and respectful.
The current FRF for the majority of Okinawans means status quo as it is (like always up to know) based on decisions made over their head, so the failure to implement the FRF would mean true progress for Okinawa.
And I'm 100% confident that Futenma, and other bases, will be returned rather sooner then later even if the current FRF fails.
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bam_boo
I can understand your view too, but its a view from one who is on the non-Okinawan side of the story.
The US and GOJ didn't look at every alternative because they assumed they could, once again, make Okinawans swallow a proposal that was convenient to them.
If US and GOJ started the process of looking for alternatives with the preposition that in the 'real world' Okinawans would ultimately reject the construction of a new base on their territory, believe me, they would have come up with a different solution. Luckily humans are intelligent and creative animals and if there's an obstacle in the way they surely find a way around.
By the way, that Okinawans got so determined in their stance is also related to the fact that they started to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Up to recently to Okinawans it seemed as if they had no choice (given the fact that they wanted to remain a part of Japan), but since the Japanese political landscape changed and at least appeared to become more democratic Okinawans started to sense that their determination might get them somewhere, and I believe the chances are high that it will.
A good way of questioning which politics to op for... but as you can imagine my answer would be different.
In my eyes for Okinawa the answer would not be whether there are two or three US bases less on the island, but whether Okinawans got to the point where they are able to determine the future of their prefecture themselves, which could also mean no US bases at all.
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bam_boo
...if there is a will
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bam_boo
YuriOtani, I don't think your proposal is an option as the majority of Okinawans would never accept any proposal that keeps Futenma, in what ever kind of form.
I believe Okinawans have made up their mind very clearly and are expressing it without much space for interpretation:
the return of Futenma without reclaiming any land (or sea) in Okinawa prefecture for a replacement facility.
It is up to the Japanese Government and the US side to facilitate this democratic assignment and (as stated in my post above) I have absolutely no doubt that there are ways to do so.
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bam_boo
lincolnman
True, also I don't believe that I can understand it entirely, as I'm not born and raised in Okinawa. I suppose I can empathize with some part of the Okinawan experience as it is about very basic human conditions.
I'm glad to find out that we can share at least some common ground on the Island where we apparently both live.
I believe that it is up to the US and the central government to accept the reality and not up to Okinawans to change their stance. Japan is, at least nominally, a democracy and in such a system there is no room for forcing politics on a prefecture against the expressed will of a clear majority in the prefecture.
About the concrete steps, I can't believe that the US military with its 38 facilities occupying almost 20% of main-island Okinawa should not be able to facilitate the necessary shrinking and change without building a completely new base and further destroying Okinawas precious nature.
In my view it's just a question of intelligent facility management and logistics and that's something the US military usually is famous for. If the US military is able to manage troops in difficult and limited terrain, provide and sustain logistical structures under enemy pressure, why shouldn't it be capable of find a solution within the current already abundant military structure in Okinawa?
Btw, in 2010 a non-partisan US Congressional committee has shown the way. The so called Webb-Levin-McCain proposal states:
cited from:
http://japanfocus.org/-Gavan-McCormack/3532
lincolnman, I hope you can see that these views are not far out leftwing propaganda, but the result of thorough and rational research and discussion process.
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