JAPAN NEWS AND DISCUSSION
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davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
No that's not what I saying "basically". What I said was what I said, not your extrapolated and incorrect version, obviously produced to vilify those who don't share your whale hugging tendencies.
This theory hasn't played out in reality, but you should tell this to the IWC Scientific Committee, and post the response you get, back here. Should be good for a laugh!
What's wrong with sustainable business?? We need more sustainable business in the 21st century - not less.
Because we already don't hunt whales anywhere except the whaling grounds.
It would be bad to allow whaling on the breeding grounds from a conservation perspective. At least, this is the predominant knowledge. Your idea of protecting on the feeding grounds instead of the breeding grounds is novel, but I think it'd be rejected by all serious whale conservationists.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
-4
davidattokyo
Spid,
You can find the poll questions here.
http://marketing.gfkamerica.com/pdf/AP-Gfk%20Poll%20Japan%202nd%20release.pdf
Indeed 1% of the respondents to the question gave a "don't know" answer, so your criticism is off the mark, I feel.
Only 13% were totally opposed to whaling, which suggests that people who personally have no interest at all in eating whales are mostly respectful towards people who feel differently.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
-2
davidattokyo
crustpunker,
I agree.
But you've still got a majority with no problems with the idea of whale as food, and maybe 10 million hard core fans, so to suggest it's "Amakudari" that keeps whaling going is pushing it I think.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
-6
davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
You're the last person who should be saying such a thing to me :)
Other than your dislike of the results, what grounds do you have to make such an allegation? Sounds like you're attacking the messenger...
Associated Press GfK - this is who did the poll. Maybe you have a conspiracy theory to explain why you think they are trying to skew results rather than simply investigate reality (or otherwise explain why an organization like this could be so useless at their own job, but still good enough to have their poll results reported in the media...)
They were asking people about their interest in eating whale meat, not their "opinion". You either have an interest to some degree, or you don't at all. (There may have been some no responses in the results anyway, but I hardly think it would have been a large number.)
By the way, in the same poll there was another question asking them about commercial whaling I think. I seem to recall seeing some "I don't cares" in those results, but it looks like some of those folks had some degree of interest in eating whales.
Sorry, I do think you are just shooting the messenger. Hey, 41% had no interest! That's still millions of people for your side, even if it is a minority!
Don't take it so hard.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
-5
davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
That's yet another unfortunate statement for you to make...
The whaling convention is for conservation of whale stocks AND development of whaling industry.
It's not one or the other, but both. Maybe you overlooked this?
Conservation is guaranteed not by how hard it is to catch whales, but whether the number of whales caught or not is sustainable. If 2,000 whales is a sustainable quota, 2,000 whales is sustainable, regardless of how efficiently or inefficiently you catch them.
You are asking that the whalers be forced to catch them inefficiently, rather than efficiently. This particular aspect has nothing to do with conservation, but much to do with the whaling industry side of things.
Business is good for human society - it creates jobs and wealth and products for consumers to enjoy. When it is done sustainably, then it is a wonderful thing that should be embraced.
You are rejecting it because of your personal dislike of whaling, I think that's really selfish and wrong.
We already don't catch whales on the breeding grounds, there's your marine parks there. We can't protect whales everywhere lest we preclude whaling entirely, which is against the spirit of the whaling convention.
Sustainability is determined by the rate of anthropogenic removals over time not exceeding the stock's propensity to naturally replenish it's numbers. To get a harvest at all, you have to catch some of them somewhere - it's better on the feeding grounds than in the breeding grounds.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
Absolutely I did. Why shouldn't people who answered "a little" be included? They gave that answer.
This was a poll by a professional polling group, I don't know what grounds you have for questioning their methodology, other than that you don't like the findings.
Why does there being 4 options mean that one of them should be discluded?
If this was a survey about "potatoes" or "iphones" would you be saying the same thing?
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
Do you think they will agree to having their work made harder like that? How are you gonna convince them to agree that this is better than the status quo when you know yourself it's worse?
Sure but that's like looking for a needle in a haystack. It's more optimal to hunt them where they are most densely located, which is close to the ice edge off the Antarctic coast (that integral part of the Australian outback, lol!).
Not really - you could have a big bathtub but that's no good unless there are any fish in it, right? That's my point. It's not the size of the harvest area that matters, it's what that area yields. If there's nothing to catch, it's not a workable, realistic solution.
I'm a New Zealander myself and I never once considered the Antarctic ocean to be my region. I do however recall anti-whalers starting to use this sort of argument around 10 years ago, all of a sudden. (Strange co-incidence I guess.)
To be honest, the way it sounds to me is as if you are just using the proximity of those international waters to Australia as an excuse. If there weren't catching whales but something else instead I wonder if there'd be all the fuss.
So Australia, if they really cared about their whales issue, could stop selling to the Japanese. I guess after 32 years of being an anti-whaling country, this is about to happen any day now.
Like I said - two way street. And last time I looked, Japan's economy is larger than Australia's.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
crustpunker,
Indeed that poll you referred to is the exact same one that I referred to.
Precisely. As I said, a majority of Japanese people have a degree of interest in eating whales.
I think you must have misread the information. Only 41% have no interest, and the rest do, to various degrees. So most people in Japan do have some interest. E.g. 60 million people or more.
Glad we cleared that up.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
I can't accept your comparison of the Southern Ocean sanctuary with the entire surface of the world's ocean.
Whales aren't distributed evenly across the surface of the earth.
The reason why whaling happens in the Southern Ocean is because that's where a lot of whales can be found during the austral summer when they go there to feed. That's why those are the whaling grounds. Your proposal is kinda like me suggesting "let's ban fishing around Australia, but you can catch any fish you find in your bathtub".
An alternative is to go hunting whales on their breeding grounds (which are outside the sanctuary), is that satisfactory to you? I don't recommend it myself.
That issue has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't care about Japan's territorial claims and associated issues, I care about sound management of whaling.
Sorry but it does get confusing - sometimes I get the impression that people are actually just saying they'll agree to let Japan catch whales in the Northern Hemisphere if they give up the south, as part of a "given an inch, take a mile" strategy... Perhaps I'm overly cynical? You are fully in support of whaling in the Northern Hemisphere?
I think that's a two way street. Australia has earned itself a bad reputation in Japan due to it's negligence toward eco-terrorism.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
crustpunker,
Mmm, that and the fact that the majority of Japanese people have some degree of interest in eating whales, as illustrated by recent polls conducted by western news media.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
-2
davidattokyo
cleo,
Yes, excuse me, I should provide some information to back my point up. Please refer to the IWC Scientific Committee's latest report (from IWC 63), section 10.1.
The summary conclusion:
"In conclusion, while the Committee regrets that it has not been able to provide reliable final estimates for the Antarctic minke populations this year, it should be possible next year. From preliminary calculations, the Committee agrees that the final estimates for each Area (see Fig. 3) will most likely lie between the numbers given by the two methods in Table 5 and be probably closer to the OK estimates."
If you read the report, you'll see in Table 5 the numbers from the two methods referred to. The OK method numbers refered to are 612,000, versus 421,000 for the SPLINTR method. As the report says the final estimate next year is likely to be between the two, and closer to the OK numbers.
Therefore we can conclude that a finalised estimate will be around 500K or more.
This is by far the most abundant baleen whale population, and 500K is certainly enough to sustain a harvest better than any other whale stock.
That other whale stocks are being sustainably utilised elsewhere only goes to drive my point home.
No, and I apologise for not pointing you at this latest information more sooner.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
The other thing with the southern ocean whaling is, if Australia etc didn't like it in the first place, why did they sign up to the whaling convention that was envisaged specifically to manage whaling in the southern ocean?
If Australia wants concessions from Japan, it really has to be more respectful towards Japan. They've gone and taken them to court, but what they should have done if they wanted to show good faith is to 'fess up and say "Yes, we know we said we agreed to the whaling rules with you, but we admit we've had a change of heart. We know that you are right in expecting under the whaling rules to be able to catch whales in the international waters of the southern ocean, and that we were wrong to pretend otherwise, but please let us talk about it again from scratch - we are prepared to be flexible for our part"
Or something like that. Unless Australia can convince Japan to renegotiate the whaling convention this won't be a starter.
But like I said, Australia's national policy is to oppose whaling everywhere, take Japan to court, accuse them of lying (when everyone knows they are acting in accordance with the spirit of the whaling convention) and I suspect some of those nasty SS clowns harassing Japanese fishermen in Taiji are from Australia too.
This is the challenge for those who want whaling to end in the southern ocean only (for some reason). Can you rein in the extremists such as the Australian government and other Australians, etc?
Personally though, with so many Antarctic minke whales in the Antarctic, if we are going to have sustainable whaling anywhere, that's where it should be concentrated, so as to minimise the risk to whale stocks. That Antarctic minke whale stock is the best able to sustain a harvest. So I'd not be for renegotiating the whaling convention myself...
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
mousetime,
That sanctuary takes in the entire Southern Ocean whaling grounds.
That's not a moderate position.
Every nation has the right to harvest marine resources from international waters, and if we go that route then we don't need an International Whaling Commission...
I think you're a minority. Australia's national policy is to oppose whaling the world over.
Japan isn't catching whales in Aussie and NZ EEZs.
I think the problem is that people in Aussie and NZ are confused about what are and are not their waters.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
cleo,
Correct.
Yes.
Tiny, more like.
Market participants don't stock products that don't sell. They stock products that do sell.
There is no such forcing. The education boards are the ones that approach the whale meat sellers looking for a good deal.
But I guess you are certain that such a decision has already been made, right ;)
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against sanctuaries per se.
The problem with the whaling convention "sanctuary" is that it encompasses the entire Antarctic whaling grounds.
The equivalent in Australian fishing would be for the government to call Australia's entire fishing grounds a "sanctuary".
This is obviously extreme, and not good for fishermen like yourself.
The problem is that with a "moratorium", coupled with a "sanctuary", there is no hunting, anywhere.
If we have a sanctuary in the whale's breeding grounds, but no moratorium, thus allowing hunting in only the whaling grounds, then I'd be happy. How about you? Sounds like we can strike such a balance?
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
troyinjapan,
I don't see what is wrong with respecting the agreed rules established by the international community as laid out in the whaling convention. Indeed I am certainly firmly adhered to this principle, and I'm not going to move an inch...
Nonetheless, I do believe some whaling in the past was unsustainable, and I don't support that. I'm for a moderate level of whaling on a sustainable basis. What more do you want me to give?
You and Spid on the other hand are both wedged firmly at the extreme "no whaling" position, and haven't moved an inch from your own "zero quota" whale harvest position, so far as I can tell.
Maybe you feel I'm being too hard on you, but maybe it's you who should relax your extreme position and join me more in the centre, where we are comfortable with modest, sustainable whale harvests?
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
cleo,
Gee, then that must be the problem... You've already referred to research that says if we stop eating whales, they'll decline, so what must be required is surely for more of us to eat them. That way we can secure whale stocks, because without us they'd be goners.
I think you're right - there's some sense to that.
But it is contingent upon us conducting whaling on a sustainable basis - by doing so we can ensure a supply of whale products and thus ensure we have a vested interest in the ongoing conservation of whale stocks, so we have a nice positive feedback loop.
But without whaling, the whales will likely die, as your research says. Doesn't fit so well with your animal rights agenda though..
Humans are predators in nature, and if the meat wasn't needed it wouldn't be stocked. It'd be converted to pet food instead.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
NihonRyu,
Cheers :) Your comments are very agreeable to me too.
Yes indeed... that's why we have to get regulated whaling established as soon as possible. Those of us who are serious about conservation of whale stocks see the need, but I think the rest are anti-whaling just for self-gratification more than anything...
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
Spidapig24,
Australia is not abiding by the IWC, and it is using loopholes. It voted for both the moratorium and the sanctuary, which are both against the spirit of whaling.
The major loophole in the whaling convention is that anti-whalers can abuse their membership to push through measures against the spirit of whaling. That's not what the whaling convention was imagined to be used for.
Australia has taken a frivilous case to the ICJ to complain about a whaling nations acting in accordance with the whaling convention... if that isn't a hissy fit I don't know what is.
There is no "consensus" against Japan.
It's in the rules, what's wrong with using the agreed rules in the spirit of whaling?
Japan doesn't complain about the whaling convention, it complains that anti-whalers don't respect and honour the rules that they agreed to.
Huh? Sounds like you have some nasty preconceptions about Japan...
A portion? That's nice spin. The sanctuary covers the ENTIRE whaling grounds. It's obviously not in the spirit of the whaling convention
There was already a "moratorium" on whaling since 1986, no need for a new sanctuary in 1994. If there is a "moratorium" already then there is thus no need for a "sanctuary". And there was never any such science advice in favour of the sanctuary from the IWC's Scientific Committee, indeed an independent review of the "sanctuary" found that it was entirely useless. It was just a political trophy, and a propaganda trophy. You see, now that they established a "sanctuary", innocent people are misled into believing that Japan is being naughty by catching whales.
Sure, but this is a forum where commenters engage in an exchange of ideas. If you don't like having your ideas challenged then perhaps a) your ideas have some issues or b) you are too fragile.
So maybe you can imagine how the whalers feel about Australia being a whaler's club member?
Cheers.
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling
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davidattokyo
cleo,
You mean, if we stop eating whales, the whales will decline?
You probably wanna be careful about which science you selectively choose to believe...
Posted in: NZ, Australia condemn Japan's plan to go ahead with whaling