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limboinjapan
arrestpaul:"News flash - criminals don't want to be shot. Not really a surprise, is it?" and "Currently 48 States have some sort of concealed carry laws and violent crime rates have dropped as a result."
News Flash; Currently every other developed Nation has strong gun control with no gun carry permits and they all have at least HALF the amount of violent crime and murder (per capita) than that of the USA.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
Noliving:"I don't believe that is an answer to my question."
Your questions??
Wow I am at a lose!
I read the "Study" you quoted from and if you had you would have seen the answers to your questions in that study look it up its available online.
But you are one for claiming I did not answer your questions I did answer everyone and with real answers and statistics as did several others on this discussion but YOU on the other hand did not even try to answer any of the questions I or anyone else wrote regarding the murder rate in the USA vs the rest of the developed world other then claiming the need for self defense and the 2nd amendment.
No I did answer but you did not like my answer or did not understand it so you chose to try and act like I didn't but I would like at least for you to try and give even one strait answer as to,
Why every other developed country has less murders, violent crime and gun deaths and injuries than the USA despite having strong gun control and few weapons in the hands of private citizens?
Its a strait forward question.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
Noliving:"So how can you call Kleck survey not hard proof but then claim/imply that Hemenway surveys is hard proof/stats?"
No these are Statistics:
Belgium, Canada, France, Finland, Germany, Italy, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, UK, Etc...
All with strong gun controls have:
Half to 6 times fewer violent crimes than the USA (per capita)
2 to 6 times fewer murders.(per capita)
4 to 10 time fewer gun related murders.(per capita)
Now these are facts not surveys polls or guesses FACTS on paper (or Data base) registered by each country and the USA statistics only count aggravated assault and up in their violent crimes statistics as the rest count all violence even if there were no injuries and still the USA is on top!
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
Ah yes Alabama what a nice place it was beautiful and nice and friendly, OH wait sorry must have been thinking of some other place, Ah yes, Alabama was the nice place that in just about every town and county outside the large cities my friends (from Massachusetts) and I were chased out or told not to stay (by the local police) and to keep on moving because and I quote "We do care for you foreigner and northern trouble makers around here!".
This was in the mid 80's but from what I can see by this idiots remarks not much has changed!
FYI, us "trouble makers" consisted of one US Marine, a marine biologist, a Paramedic and a CPA you know real dangerous types.
Posted in: New Alabama governor apologizes for remarks on Christians
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limboinjapan
I will repeat my questions but this time I will try and make them as simple as possible so that the pro gun group can understand them and perhaps give some strait answers.
If guns are so needed for defense.
Why are violent crimes so much lower (per capita) in every other developed Nation than in the USA?
(before some smart @ss says something yes the UK has the highest crime rate of the developed nations the vast majority being B&E, and other non violent theft)
Why is gun violence by criminals also so much lower (per capita) in every developed Nation (where virtually all of them have strict gun control) than that of the USA (where guns are easily accessible)?
If the premise that criminals will obtain their guns illegally even with gun control ( I suppose on the black market).
Why are they not able to do so as prevalently in every other developed country (again that have gun control) as they seem to be able to do in the USA?
What is the main difference that makes crime in the USA so much more violent than all the other developed nations?
And please do not come back with the standard "gang" reply every country has gangs and many of these gangs are just as violent as the ones in the USA the only difference that I can see is that they don't use or can't get guns.
It is also interesting to note that the ATF's own gun trace program has shown that most guns (77% to 93%) were originally legally purchased in the USA and subsequently resold.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
@Noliving
It seems that David Hemenway a Harvard professors research showed that self defense use of guns was nowhere near in the millions as Kleck claimed and was in the hundred thousand range now we have a Harvard guy VS a Florida State University guy my money is on the Harvard guy!
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
Noliving:"who is a professor in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee, guns prevent or are used to defend the victim over 2.5 million times a year in the US. Keep in mind that doesn't mean the guns are fired just that at a minimum they are drawn. According to him"
Again an opinion no hard proof no stats just some random professor who claims something, can he or you show any concrete (I will repeat that) "concrete" statistics drawn from real evidence and not just "well my study suggest".
His research was never backed up by any concrete stats and was based on "surveys" and is also nearly 20 years old and he is a supporter of the NRA his so-called research claimed that criminal use was only in the hundred thousand range which has been disproved and in fact the criminal use by police reports was in the millions so sue me if I have a hard time believing a report by a man that couldn't even be bothered to correctly check the simplest thing like police statistics to confirm the number of criminal uses of guns, but then that would not have suited his purpose of justifying the NRA stance.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
ariwrigh at 02:09 AM JST - 21st January
I think what you have just described is what people call gun control!
How can you insure only those that are responsible enough to own a gun are the only ones to have one without basically having them checked out, trained in the use and proper handling and storage, and that they do not resell that gun to someone that shouldn't have one, without registration and controls?
And to my knowledge other then in the USA gun ownership has never been established as a Human right! Not even the most liberal interpretation of human right includes gun ownership
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
@Barbarossa, @arrestpaul, @vulcan:
Again nothing but innuendoes hearsay and rumors but not one shred of proof to back up your point! Nothing, Nada, Zero!
You can't even find a single piece of anything not even what one of you posted was correctly done, fear mongering is all your paranoid minds can come up with no proof no evidence all you can say is stuff like
"the stats don't show the fear of the sheep." (@vulcan)
what is that supposed to mean? If it means the fear of the pro gun sheep that cannot understand or see the facts that countries with gun control have less violent crime and murders (per capita) but blindly swallow the gun lobby and NRA fear mongering that without guns they will all be raped, murdered of fall victim of a tyrannical government, then I guess that your statement could be true.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
Barbarossa:"Funny how no one has mentioned that Switzerland has a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000 and that country REQUIRES private ownership of guns!"
I think you are a little confused about Switzerland!
It does not REQUIRE private ownership of guns what is does require is that every able body person between certain ages do their military duty on a regular basis and are on reserve the rest of the time and while on reserve they must have their military issued firearm at the ready.
And all you have proven in your statement is that Switzerland has a very tight control on their guns the government requires that all guns be registered and that all those in possession of guns must first pass training courses and register the gun and that at any time they are asked must produce that weapon to officials.
Do try and get your information right, unlike the USA Switzerland has strict control on all firearms is that what you think the USA should do? If so great and nice government control of guns, I'm all for that!
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
@vulcan:"you show me the stats!"
It is interesting that most here on the pro gun side have not given even one piece of concrete evidence backed by statistics but the those for gun control have given proof that it works back by evidence only to have the pro group ignore the evidence, dismiss it without giving a good reason or counter evidence or fall back on the constitution and or self defense argument.
Simple minded people that cannot hold a discussion to facts or use facts because they cannot find or are unable to find facts to back up their position.
We have given many stats and evidence of our point the ball is in your court to disprove our facts and stats but you have not done so, you have only repeated self defense and the constitution not one single fact, stat or piece of evidence to backup you position.
You will also find that in an attempt to play down the violent crime rate of the USA the USA government only counts Aggravated Assault, whereas other developed countries count violent crime rate includes all categories of assault, including the much-more-numerous Assault level 1 (i.e., assault not using a weapon and not resulting in serious bodily harm) and still the USA comes out on top on a per capita basis.
As for Murder:
USA: 4.28 per 100,000
The nearest other developed countries would be:
Finland with 2,83 per 100,000
Portugal with 2.33 per 100,000
France with 1.73 per 100,000
Australia with 1.50 per 100,000
Canada with 1.49 per 100,000
I can go on if you like I could also move on to only gun related murders which would show an even larger disparity.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
I have just one thing to say or point out to the people who are pro gun and mostly from the USA.
Can you explain with concrete evidence or at least a relatively sane answer why if you take a look at all the developed nations that for the most part have strict gun laws and compare them to the USA you will find a dramatically lower crime rate, violent crime rate, murder rate and gun death and injury rate (per capita)than that of the USA.
Please think long and hard on this question and do not respond if you do not have any real argument or evidence also do not try and pull the drug gang bit because Europe has the Russian mob these days that are just as dangerous and violent and guns on the black market can always be had but black market guns cost more and are much harder to get as in the USA and you can check your own government stats on this most guns that are in the hands of criminals were bought legally then resold at guns shows and the like, were almost no controls exist.
If the pro gun group's logic were true then the USA would be the safest country in the developed world but it is not it is actually one if not the least safe.
I don't need to add any statistics to prove my point as I already gave the stats on Canada VS USA and a quick search will show that the USA is in the company of such places as Russian, Brazil, Columbia but every developed country has at least half the crime and murder rate (per capita)as that of the USA, so show me I am wrong make your pro gun point by showing real numbers and not fantasies.
The results of this polling reinforce why I for the past 19+ years have avoided going out in places where people from the USA hangout and prefer going to places where Europeans, Canadians and Japanese go, the macho gun mentality that USA males have permeates everything and makes things often unpleasant.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
vulcan:"But in Canada the population is 10 times lower than that of the USA."
I'm going to take a wild guess you didn't read my post at 01:59 PM JST - 19th January or if you did then that would explain most of your comments.
That is per capita, by percentage, based on the number of crimes per 100,000 people, do I need to go on?
And I think you need to look up Canada it has a very similar demographic as the USA with 2 major exception medical care and Crime, actually on a per capita basis more Canadians hunt than in the USA so you would think that Canada would have more guns per capita then the USA but it doesn't because you don't need an assault riffle for hunting or even a hand gun.
vulcan:"The gun debate when equated to crime is irrelivent and small compared to cars and alcohol's relation to drunk driving deaths. You don't complain about these privleges, but you complain of our rights?"
You are joking here, I hope! Guns account for nearly 60% of all murders in the USA everything else pales in comparison!
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
vulcan:"We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists. For more information, please see: Guns, Revolutions, History. Here is a quote from the Lexicon Universal Encyclopedia"
Try reading a history book not "approved" by the USA government and its fantasy about the USA revolution.
You will find that Taxes and Guns were not the actual reason the actual reason was that the British were planing a consolidation of all their territory including the newly acquired French territories which would have reduced the control and power of those you call your founding fathers as well as the fact that the new territories would not have slaves and recognized the native treaties with the French.
Flighty tyranny or to protect from the possibility of government abuse are a fantasy created buy the gun makers lobby the USA government never hesitated to put down any insurrection or rebellion and did so within its first 15 years in existence and until the 20 century was still controlled by a hand full of land and industry Barons many of whom were the descendants of the Land Barons that controlled prior to the revolution and were the backers of the revolution as well as the owners and financier of the militias of that time, meaning they owned and controlled the guns.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
vulcan:"THe question should be; Do you support criminals being the only ones who have access to firearms?" and "Why do people insist that controlling guns equals controlling them"
You again conjecture that gun control means that criminals will be able to obtain guns and not law abiding people but if you read what I wrote at 01:59 PM JST - 19th January you will see that in Canada were all guns are controlled the use of gun by criminals is more then 4 times lower than that of the USA.
Why is that as many here like your self will point out criminals get there guns illegally but what you like to omit is that those illegal guns were originally purchased legally in the USA but with no controls and were resold of to criminals.
As in Canada it is difficult to obtain a gun permit and handguns are viewed as not necessary so therefore fewer guns available for criminals making it more difficult for them to get one.
It should be noted that most guns used by criminals in Canada are bought legally in the USA and smuggled into Canada and that in 2008 the government of Canada estimated that 75% of all guns use in a criminal activity in Canada were legally purchased in the USA so not only is the USA with its weak guns laws responsible for their own criminals having guns but they are also responsible for most of those in Canada.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
OK the question is about private gun ownership!
So lets take this scientifically:
Lets take 2 countries with similar backgrounds and demographics: USA and Canada
The latest numbers of homicides I could find are these:
USA 4.2 per 100,000 for a total of 16,204
USA gun related 2,7 per 100,000 for a total of 9,369 or 58% of all homicides
Canada 1.49 per 100,000 for a total of 523
Canada gun related 0.5 per 100,000 for a total of 144 or 27%
Now if we remove the gun factor the USA has a 1.5 rate pre 100,000 for a total of 6,835
And Canada has 0.99 per 100,000 for a total of 379
Now looking at these numbers we can clearly see that with guns the USA has nearly 3 times the homicides than that of Canada.
But when removing the guns from the equation we find that the USA has only 1.5 times the homicides than that of Canada.
Yes Canada has guns but the types of guns available in Canada rarely include handguns and never assault rifles and Canada has a tricked control and registration of all guns.
So one can only conclude that the people of the USA are not overly more violent than Canadians but that the availability of guns for those that are violent makes it more dangerous.
The best scenario would be like this:
In Canada a thief trying to rob a convenience store would most likely use a knife the store employee behind the counter could move back grab a bat and press the alarm at which point the thief would probably run.
In the USA the thief would most likely us a gun the employee may try and move away press the alarm or even reach for a gun at which point the thief will start shooting perhaps both start shooting employee may be killed, other customer may be killed in the shootout.
Gun control has a proven track record and crime in general is lower in countries with such controls the odd man out in the developed world is the USA with a crime rate, murder rate and gun death rate that no other developed country comes close to, the USA is grouped in with third world countries and basket cases.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
@kujiranikusuki at 08:52 AM JST - 19th January
Are these numbers more significant?
Note that the number of legal death by guns which include police is 35 time smaller than the number of homicides.
It is also interesting to note that no other developed country comes anywhere near the numbers or percentage of that of the USA, are we to take this as meaning that Americans (USA) are inherently more violent then the rest?
In the U.S. for 2006, there were 30,896 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,883; Homicide 12,791; Accident 642; Legal Intervention 360; Undetermined 220. This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S. The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, declined to 1999, and has remained relatively constant since. However, firearms injuries remain a leading cause of death in the U.S., particularly among youth (CDC, 2001) (CDC, 2006).
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
Most of the so-called founding fathers were loyalist up until they realized that with the acquisition of the new territories that once belonged to France and the expiation northwards they would now have less power most if not all were appalled by the fact that the new territory did not allow slavery and granted equal rights to the French speaking population and even more the Catholics and that the British crown agreed to respect the treaties and territories that the French crown had made with the natives, Benjamin Franklin was most appalled by the fact the French Catholics could sever on the limited jury system that existed and even wrote a letter to the King protesting this fact again claiming that they (French and Catholics) could not be trusted to remain loyal to the King.
The second amendment talks about the right to bear arms in a militia style situation and who at the time owned most of the guns and financed those militias? Well the answer is: The elite Founding fathers that ruled under the King and then ruled under a quasi democracy for several more generation through cronyism and nepotism.
I would guess that if they were alive today they would be the first to want to remove guns for the general population as it would have jeopardized their control, in the same manor the same elite move to remove citizenship of Irish Catholics and other immigrants and other citizens born in the USA when they felt that these people posed a threat by just being catholic.
The gun lobby and others have so well brainwashed so many it is quite funny to listen and read how little the population of the USA knows about its own history.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
SolidariTea:"Seen any of the photos of the armories those Mexi drug cartels have?"
Yes I have! And where do those guns come from?
From the supposed legal sales in the USA!
Kill the legal insanity of the sale of such weapons in the USA and that will make it much more difficult for these lowlifes to get them!
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?
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limboinjapan
@hokkaidoguy at 06:37 PM JST - 18th January
Canada has fairly strict gun laws that for the most part only allow guns that are for hunting and rarely hand guns it has a national gun registry that the conservatives and loonies primarily in central Canada backed by the USA gun lobby have unsuccessfully tried to kill when most of the rest of the population wants stricter gun control.
The biggest problem right now in Canada are GUNS brought in illegally from the USA that is fueling gang wars that are getting innocent people killed.
Why are they being smuggled in from the USA because Canada is not stupid enough to view and assault riffle or hand gun as necessary for hunting.
The nut case that killed all those students at Dawson college in Montreal got his weapons from the USA piece by piece even though the USA sellers knew it was not legal to ship these weapons and parts to Canada.
So USA with its guns and its lack of control is and has been the cause of criminals in Mexico and Canada getting weapons and if anyone thinks that the gun lobby and gun maker don't know or are not behind this then they are either fools or idiots.
Posted in: The gun control debate: Do you support the right of citizens to own and bear firearms?