JAPAN NEWS AND DISCUSSION
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Why do Japanese change their attitude when they communicate with foreigners?
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Confrontation
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U.S. Navy investigating how parts fell off aircraft near Atsugi
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California court to decide if SeaWorld whales are illegal 'slaves'
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Kuroki reported pregnant 2 weeks after denying relationship with Akanishi
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- Assistant Language Teacher (ALT) in Kanto region
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- Assistant Language Teacher - TOKYO - late-March start
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- Assistant Language Teacher - Kanagawa Prefecture - late-March start
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tigermoth
Betting and dancing naked women didn't bring down the towers. It can be argued by some whether or not the attackers were true followers of Islam, but they certainly had their fanaticism rightly or wrongly based in their own twisted version of it's teachings.
Posted in: Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated
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tigermoth
So the conclusions being offered are that Islam and the 'modern' Muslims who follow its tenants are becoming 'westernized' or 'Americanized' and therefore absolutely no threat to our society. Is this truly the case? Yes, certainly the Muslim who has lived in this country for 20 years, or was born here is likely to see Islam and Sharia law in a more moderate light, and one that shirks off the ideas labeled as 'extremists' - i.e. subjugating or killing infidels, homosexuals, etc. But is this really true of much of today's immigrant Muslim population that is a bit closer to the less watered down version? I'm asking rather than making statement of fact. Is there data on this?
Posted in: Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated
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tigermoth
Sorry if off topic - Triumvere very good response to my last above; thought a shout-out in order. Reasonable discussion by those who don't always agree is possible - just not likely on here! Thanks.
Posted in: Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated
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tigermoth
I would partly agree with your remarks Triumvere, but would question your comment that that a billion + Muslims don't practice a more radical form (or more adherent form if you prefer) of the religion. How do you come to this conclusion? This seems a bit more difficult to gauge since despite the growing population in western nations, most Muslims still reside in Asia, the Middle East and Northern Africa. Can you say for fact that most of them are peace loving and don't want to see the death of the infidels who don't believe the tenants of Islam? You can suppose it based on those that you've met. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I haven't seen empirical data on this. I have no solid proof to the contrary either, but given your estimate that almost all practice a benign and more 'peaceful' form of Islam I would bet that certainly many more than that have at least a more vigorous belief in Islam that might be slightly less peaceful and benign in nature than you might suspect, particularly given the record of the west in dealing with the areas of the world that Muslims inhabit.
I think the problem is that while many conclude that the vast majority of Muslims do in fact practice a peaceful form of Islam, they don't take into account that they might not be getting a true picture based on the friendlier enclaves encountered here in the west, and that the Imams and holey leaders in Islam tend to be more fervent and radical, and they hold a great influence. I'm not concluding or even trying to vaguely insinuate that all Muslims are a step away from being suicide bombers, but rather that it bears a good, hard look.
Posted in: Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated
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tigermoth
I would only counter that, at least on the outside as I'm not a follower, that there is no real separation between religion and politics with the followers of Islam, as your religion dictates everything that you do, and a separation of church and state is not in the code.
Posted in: Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated
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tigermoth
I think I’ve actually changed my mind somewhat on the mosque/center whatever. My argument was the same as others, that while constitutionally it should be allowed, tastefully (if you will) it should not. I think the US constitution is always open for interpretation, and not meant to be so strict that it cannot be adapted as times and situations change – but not in this instance. By that I mean things like gun control – the ‘right to bear arms’ was meant for a time when the U.S. citizenry made up the country’s militia force, and folks needed guns to hunt and protect themselves. With supermarkets and police forces, and a standing army these things have become unnecessary. Now the NRA’s screeching that every loon should be able to own an automatic weapon if they sign a form stating they aren’t nuts is dangerous at best. But religious freedom is religious freedom.
But, what those that decry this religious freedom are not taking into account is that the nature of Islam is a tad different than your average religion. Most of this might be perception, but today’s world examples bear this out to too large of a degree. All religions claim to be ‘the one’ and have edicts dictating that there should be only one ‘true’ god. Christianity certainly does. But most religions – particularly in today’s modern age where tolerance and human rights take a much higher precedence - do not call for the eradication of all other religions – or if they do it has long been realized that this cannot and shouldn’t be done. There seems to be a larger group in the Islamic world that believes this is not only possible, but eventual. And while you all dismiss this as utter nonsense and state that a much more moderate form of Islam is practiced by most Muslims today, many wonder. What does it take, how much indoctrination does it take to make a moderate turn the corner of radicalism? Experience seems to indicate that not much in too many instances. Suddenly they’re on airplanes lighting explosive underwear.
The point is that yes, America is based on freedoms. Islam is not; at least it doesn’t appear so. When women are being stoned to death for supposed adultery and basic rights are denied in the name of this great religion, it gives pause for thought. I think much of the American public feels or at least perceive that the tenants of Islam and the freedoms we promote are at odds with one another. It’s difficult to preach constitutional freedoms when the articles you are defending are so far from it. That doesn’t make it right of course. But all have to keep in mind that until more recently the numbers of Muslims immigrating to this country was not as high, and therefore the clash of cultures not so severe. Rightly or wrongly it takes time for the typical American who would fight and die for their right to wear shorts and t-shirt and listen to Black Sabbath to accept a culture based on religion where the women must essentially dress like ninjas to avoid offense and they aren’t allowed to drink (which is utter madness).
I don’t think that explains why a mosque built at that location raises such ire, but perhaps illustrates background emotions. Importing a system of comparative intolerance to a system based on tolerance (compared to most of the rest of the world) is bound to cause clash. And those that say Islam is not based on intolerance, or at least conformance is kidding themselves to a large degree.
Posted in: Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated
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tigermoth
I've just spent many posts arguing about the disparity between Islamic culture and modern western culture so I can't in any way condone such an act. But if we could do this to child molesters (chop off their anatomy) I'd have no problem with that.
Posted in: Saudi judge considers paralysis punishment
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tigermoth
I just cannot understand this thinking. Many of you simply don't understand victimization, and that there is very much still a form of 'collective victimization' that a lot of Americans still carry. Think of it in terms of a rape. When a woman is violated in such a violent and tragic way, she often doesn't want to be around men for a while - any of them. It's not because all men are rapists or evil, and she understands that only one of them raped her. But she needs time and space to put it all in perspective, and put it behind her. It's only been nine years. In historical terms that's a drop in the bucket; we're still arguing frequently on here about WWII which ended 65 years ago.
While admittedly very many Americans are wary of Muslims for reasons that aren't usually fair, in this case I still see it as just being too fresh. The decision's been given and Constitutionally they can build. But there that sense of 'not the right time'. If they choose to ignore this and build anyway it says something about character.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
I would be interested to know how you propose we fight them 'at home' given that anything even presented in such a light is seen as bigoted and paranoid by those like you.
I would agree with you there. It is a very small danger, and the issue is one of appropriateness, which is what I said to begin with on one of these thread many posts ago. Simply stated and to the point then, it is not appropriate at that location and the group wishing to build the mosque would save themselves much angst and unwanted anger by the community (a majority of New Yorkers were shown in a poll to be against the mosque) if they simply decided to relocate a bit further away. I know, it come down it 'how far is far enough?'. Well, two blocks isn't.
Again, this is your subjective opinion, which you are very much entitled to. Mine is that realists today are too strapped with a political correctness that keeps them from seeing, or at least admitting to the fundamental core of many problems. If they rid themselves of this burden then they are labeled as bigots and paranoids by the likes of you. As my wife, very much a liberal and a trained MSW (social worker) is fond of saying, there is a grain of truth to every stereotype. But in our society today, if you allude to this truth, you are shot down for intolerance. The truth hurts and shall not be spoken.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
Yabits, I find myself either agreeing with you or understanding your points much more often these days - which is a bit scary, but good that perhaps we can open each others minds a bit in these discussions rather than always disagreeing and childish arguments. There is a good lesson there.
How many mosques in the U.S. have Imams inciting murder? Good question and I don't think the answer is known, except perhaps by the CIA. Perhaps more than you would think, and perhaps less than I would think. How many incite hate and murder against the west/christian infidels? How many do so in a less subtle method than actually preaching hate? How many help 'the cause' in other ways? For instance I used to frequent an Irish bar in the city and saw them on more than one occasion pass the hat around for donation for the IRA. How many mosques that might not be actually inciting violence, are assisting in funding and possible sending recruits? It would be naive to say none.
The prevention in not building the mosque comes in two forms. The immediate is a message by the local Muslim community that is behind this mosque that while they certainly do not agree with pigeon-holing all Islamic/Muslim groups with the 9/11 attackers, they understand the sensitivity issue and reason why this mosque might be seen in less than a positive light. It could only create a feeling of good will and perhaps promote better understanding; building the mosque will certainly do the opposite, as public opinion has shown. The other form has even been eluded to by a Muslim commenting on why the mosque is a bad idea. While certainly I think that it's likely over-blown to call this a 'victory mosque' you certainly must be able to see that extremists could easily point to this mosque and say that it proves the spread of Islam is unstoppable and 'God's will' on the spot of their 'greatest victory' against the evil west. Two blocks away, close enough. That's not implying the owners and users of this mosque will believe that, but radicals could promote it as such. Reason enough for pause anyway. And wouldn't it be just the feather in their caps if they can infiltrate this mosque with an extremist fringe?
Sacrificing liberty to gain security. I agree with you on this one and it's a tough question. The problem is that while we've always managed to maintain something of a separation of church and state (yes, I know at times laughable with Bush's, etc.). With Islam and the Muslim community, there seems to be no separation. It's a dichotomy of cultures where one is so fundamentally different than the other that it's proven almost impossible to mesh the two. America is essentially a Christian nation - like it or not - and while it was founded on freedom of religion, it wasn't envisioned several hundred years ago that groups with such a different and prevailing set of cultural values and deep religious fervor would flock to the US in great numbers. And it certainly wasn't envisioned that said religion would have a violent fringe that while perhaps equal to Christianity's violent past, seems horribly out of date and downright scary in the modern civilized world we've supposedly created.
So do we trade the tenants of our Constitution and what America stands for and means, or do we stand by those principles and perhaps watch America become something unrecognizable and something it was never intended to be? It's a weird conundrum full of double-edged swords.
Posted in: Some Muslims question mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
Yes, but to what degree do you tolerate the intolerant? And how long? How many do you sacrifice on this alter? How long do you stick your collective heads in the sand and claim righteous indignation for the rights of those, many of whom would do no such thing if roles were reversed and you were in their country?
Most seem to have long forgotten that what made this nation, and what allowed us to enjoy things such as freedom of religion was a common bond as Americans first, with a shared ideal and idea of what freedom truly is. Western democracies are now no longer 'allowed' to have this sense of identity without being labeled as xenophobic, intolerant bigots. We shall see how it all falls out in the end.
Still think the mosque could go anywhere else and be just as serving to the Muslim community.
Posted in: Some Muslims question mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
We had a Chrysler Cordoba - not a bad car really, although it looked somewhat 'pimp-ish'.
Or radical Islamic nutcases - you see the problem therein lies that they tend to train in making and using explosive devices, and don't care who they kill - which is problematic to us poor schlomos trying to go about our everyday lives.
Yeah, great. But see point above. If said Imam incites murder, and said robot flunkie is trained terrorist, flunkie robot kills 50 innocents, and usually themselves in the process for their 50 virgins or whatever. Doesn't help the 50 innocents killed. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Mmmm...is it that, or just following a form of the oft quoted phrase 'discretion is the better part of valor'. Relocate slightly and all are served.
Sorry mate, any credibility you every might have had flew out the window on this one. Have you ever sent wife/mother/brother or other loved on off to work/daycare whatever and had them murdered by religious extremists? If not I would say you know not about which you speak; I don't and I haven't. But to go there seems odd and rather scary to me. I suppose you're trying to say it's time to move on. I would simply suggest that that you walk a mile in their shoes before condemning them for grieving longer than the time you deem as acceptable.
No, certainly it's not. I can't speak for all, and this is my opinion (just so I don't get accused of anything) but I think that many in the US have a problem with Islam/Muslims not because they choose a religion other than Christianity, but that according to the fundamental beliefs, Sharia law, the doctrine of Islam is too often interpreted to a degree that is so foreign to what the US is SUPPOSED to stand for that while yes religious freedom is one of the tenants of our democracy, the laws and edicts of this religion are so anti-democracy (if not in actual wording that too often in interpretation) that it becomes an affront and in opposition to what our Great Experiment is all about. Long, horribly written sentence, but you get my drift. When folks are getting stoned to death in Iran for having an affair under the tenants of Sharia law, it's difficult to balance that with a blanket statement of religious freedom and tolerance. Yes, I understand that if those of the Islamic faith come here they are subject to our laws and regulations, but how many headlines have you seen recently of 'family law' and even in some countries an agreement to allow the enforcement of Sharia law over those of the host nation? And yes, I get it that there are varying degrees of moderation and extremism in the Islamic faith. I equate it to a new found interest in sharks, thanks to the Discovery Channel and 'Shark week'. Yes, sharks are beautiful and too often misunderstood creatures. The passive sharks are grouped in with the great whites. Chances of a shark attack are akin to the chances of getting struck by lightening. But I still don't want to swim in a pool of sharks. Call me a bigot, racist or whatever you will. I think protecting the constitution and a religious group's right to build a house of worship under it are immensely important. But so is maintaining the overall spirit in integrity of freedom in this country. I see too many tenants of Islam that and Sharia law that threaten those freedoms and move progress we've made back to the stone age. Call me what you will, but at least I'm honest. Perhaps we've been kidding ourselves and being PC for too long. I'm not condoning the condemnation of all Muslims. Nor am I paranoid or bloody stupid enough to think that they're all 'out to get us'. But in the separation of church and state, it is a religion that in too many instances goes contrary to the rights and freedoms that I feel the US was founded upon. If you defend their right to build a mosque, defend my right to believe this without label. Yeah, right.
Posted in: Some Muslims question mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
How about they build a huge library dedicated to educating the mind first, that way subjugation of the soul can be based on true thought rather than indoctrination and brain washing.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
Why not, I went for twelve years to fool my parents, until they stopped making me go and admitted that they really didn't believe much of that nonsense either.
Posted in: Growing number of Americans incorrectly call Obama Muslim
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tigermoth
Sez you stated:
"If your objection is that the center is a monument to the destruction of the Towers and to those who destroyed it, you are mistaken."
Perhaps you are the one being presumptuous in assuming that it could not be infiltrated by (assuming the current imam is as benign as some claim) and made into just such a monument, under the very noses of the 'infidel' that were the targets of the original terrorist attacks.
As for not speaking to the point, I would submit that it entirely does speak to the point; that such a mosque built so close to the site of the 9/11 attacks could in fact at some point serve as a rallying cry of sorts to those Muslims with a radical bent that do believe in violence as an end to their means, and particularly to those who see the attacks as a 'righteous and just jihad'.
The idea that this mosque could potentially become a symbol of some sorts is a sideline. As I have stated earlier, by right they can build wherever it is legally allowed. It is rather a question of need and decency. Does the mosque/center have to be right there? If so, why? Would it not be more in keeping with 'brotherly understanding' - given the opposition - to graciously offer to move the mosque elsewhere? It does seem that their decision is that it must be here on principal, and I question total motive behind that - that's all.
But by whose definition - yours? If I don't want a formerly convicted child molester in my neighborhood, the ACLU would tell me that I'm being bigoted and intolerant of a man who has paid for his crime and has basic human rights. I would be objecting on the grounds that I have two children and statistics show that those who perpetrate such crimes usually are not 'cured' and do so again. Am I the intolerant bigot because I don't want the person around my children, or the realist recognizing a real danger? Apples and oranges with the topic, as this is just to illustrate a point so don't accuse me of comparing Muslims to child molesters.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
Yes, but your assumption is that extremists/those with a more radical view of Islam will not ever become involved with this mosque, and I think that extremely naive. In fact, I should think it would become a target of extremists to 'infiltrate' this mosque (do they refer to themselves as a 'congregation'?) as sort of a PR conquest if you will.
From my standpoint, religion - and the disagreement of those that either choose to follow or not follow as specific belief system - has long been the source of more violence and death than any other source in human history (the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc., etc.). To assume that the followers of Islam are peaceful and the majority will always be so is a history lesson already learned. While we talk about religious freed, religion typically equals intolerance, no matter how peaceful any claim to be. God loving Christians have a long history of killing those who don't believe, and this based on a doctrine of peace. A religion based in rigid terms on ridding the world of those who don't believe? And based in countries where every Tom, Dick and Mohamed seem to have at least three AK's per family hanging from coat hooks by the front door and with at least one nutter somewhere in the family line willing to blow himself up for a final reward of virgins?
There is a not so fine difference between being intolerant, bigoted and paranoid, and being a realist in a world where it is politically incorrect to do so.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
Dictating no. But should the President never voice an opinion for fear of influence? Yet they exercise this influence to pass legislation. I don't really think this is a separation of church and state issue, as the issue is more perceived than actual.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
Actually your question raises a good point. There is a separation between church and state that I think is a good one, but that does not equate to a separation of morality or opinion. In my view we elect a President not only based on their ability to defend and uphold the Constitution and ideals of the USA, but also their moral character and intelligence (supposedly, I know it rarely works out that way). I don't think it's a bad thing to know a person's true feelings on a difficult topic, and perhaps the political dodging that we get when elections loom is not a good thing. I miss the Teddy Roosevelt type who would be more apt to tell you what they thought, good or bad. At least you knew where his type stood rather than the gasbagging and dodging of today's lot.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
Actually good point Triumvere, I don't know the President's true thoughts on this. I think the only reason it became an issue is that because of upcoming elections the interpretations and re-clarifications by staff of his statements have been purposely vague to avoid voter fallout. Understandable, though regrettable that in this day and age, and particularly in American politics we can't get a person's opinion without such fears.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero
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tigermoth
To my point, why doesn't he just say something like 'Of course they have the Constitutional right to build a mosque on the proposed site, and as Americans we should all agree with and defend their right to do so. However, in the interest of sensitivity to the families and friends of those lost on 9/ll, and the majority of Americans who feel strongly against the building of this mosque so close to that tragic site, I would hope that they may yet reconsider and instead opt to build somewhere nearby that is close enough for their followers to attend, yet a respectful distance of a site that remains a raw wound in the American psyche. While it is certainly unfair and dangerous to brand a religion based on the cowardly actions of a few, it is time, discussion and understanding that will heal these wounds and not forcing a point for the simple constitutionality of the issue, even if, as in this case, it is based on fundamental rights that formed the basis of this country."
Okay, I'm no Presidential speech writer. But it is possible to believe in and support the constitutionality of something yet be opposed to it in principle. The issue is not cut and dry.
Posted in: Obama says Muslims have right to build mosque near ground zero