“Everything is radioactive all the time, but nobody was paying any attention to it,” he said, referring to the low natural background levels of radiation present everywhere. “Most of us have no point of reference for what radiation is.”
Very true. Nobody ever actually tried mapping Japan in the past, especially the granite/radon rich areas. Sadly, nobody will ever know due to a lack of original data.
marcelito at Jul. 10, 2012 - 02:44PM JST
Good job guys...
"Safecast filled a critical need in Japan by simply quick thinking and quick action "...indeed..and that makes it all the more frustrating and unforgivable that J-government and big companies with all the financial and other resources available to them could not do the same at the time when their own country and people needed it most. TIJ.
smithinjapan at Jul. 10, 2012 - 03:59PM JST
"In one case, the Japanese government kept secret its radiation projection data, which had accurately shown wafts of radiation heading northwestward from Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant, far outside the neat 20-kilometer circle defined by government evacuation orders."
Very sad, indeed. The people you trust to lead and guide you hiding secrets that could kill you. Basroil will no doubt try and twist this fact, as he has claimed flat out evacuations had 'nothing to do with the Fukushima plant', but fortunately there are companies like Safecast to show the truth of things and we don't have to rely on the unreliable, no records kept J-government and TEPCO. Thank you, Safecast.
Onniyama at Jul. 10, 2012 - 04:14PM JST
marcelito. It is not that they could not inform people but rather they did not want to inform people. They have nuclear technology to sell in Asia. They were hoping for as little bad press as possible. Still are!!
Venlo at Jul. 10, 2012 - 04:37PM JST
No doubt "some peeps" on this forum will also say SAFECAST don't know how to properly use Geigerz! lol
ogtob at Jul. 10, 2012 - 04:55PM JST
Their site is lame. None of the map links work! Totally wasted my time.
yasukuni at Jul. 10, 2012 - 05:16PM JST
Cool story.
" by simply quick thinking and quick action"
And don't we need more of that here!
Thunderbird2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 05:40PM JST
I'm confused... just how have they mapped the radiation? Have they been on the ground with these detector GPS thingies?
I'm always a bit sceptical of things like this, to be honest.
zichi at Jul. 10, 2012 - 05:47PM JST
I think since shortly after the 3/11 LEVEl 7 nuclear disaster, Safecast have done a good job of mapping the radiation levels in Fukushima, Miyagi, Iwate and other places. They have been on the ground to measure the radiation and also taken car journeys along certain routes. They have also been helped by crowd sourcing from across the whole of the country.
But I must say, their web site used to be more easy to use than what it is at present.
lostrune2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:11PM JST
Hahaha, leave it to a foreigner to do something about it instead of waiting for the government to do it for you (to see some data).
Thunderbird2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:13PM JST
So is this about a new geiger counter, or have they just made a map based on radiation levels from all over Japan?
Sorry if I seem a bit thick but I don't understand what's so special... surely anyone could have mapped the radiation by asking people to input levels into a chart and then displaying that as a colour-coded map.
zichi at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:38PM JST
Safecast handed out hundreds of geiger counters.
zichi at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:40PM JST
Thunderbird2
why don't you just visit the web site and find out for youself?
basroil at Jul. 10, 2012 - 08:59PM JST
Thunderbird2Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:13PM JST
So is this about a new geiger counter, or have they just made a map based on radiation levels from all over Japan?
Both a system and hardware. Can't say new hardware though, seems to be based off the same pancake sensor as everything else. Good enough for measuring clicks, but can't tell you what it is from.
Interestingly they validate the fallout maps estimated to the letter (ratio wise), so you can assume that they are reasonably calibrated for typical fallout ratios. Maps need a bit more resolution though, 1 measurement point per sq km isn't nearly enough.
Thunderbird2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 09:15PM JST
I did visit the site, but it just seems to an ad for a geiger counter.
hatsoff at Jul. 10, 2012 - 09:47PM JST
With data, people can make better decisions, said Bonner.
Well done Safecast. The sentence above is so simple, so true, and was/is apparently so difficult for the government to understand
pointofview at Jul. 10, 2012 - 10:00PM JST
So what are the levels?
moomoochoo at Jul. 10, 2012 - 10:44PM JST
How accurate are these geiger counters? Cheap is great as long it's accurate.
basroil at Jul. 10, 2012 - 10:53PM JST
Thunderbird2Jul. 10, 2012 - 09:15PM JST
I did visit the site, but it just seems to an ad for a geiger counter.
You need to go to the blog. They are in it to sell products after all、the map is a cool feature that they advertise as easy to do with the device.
Venlo at Jul. 10, 2012 - 11:50PM JST
So... Basroil, they're just "in the business" to sell products, eh?
I beg to differ, but let's take a look at some of your comments regarding the spread of radioactive fallout from Daiichi, nevertheless.
May I quote.
"Most of the radiation readings stop being significant after 5-6 kilometers (readings within 4 kilometers are highly significant but far less than some apocalyptic writers showed, a single point is anomalous due to it's location as a river valley)"
"A RIVER VALLEY," you say.
"Just some very small towns in the immediate vicinity to the plant. Nobody ever said there wasn't radiation, simply that the risks and levels are being overplayed. This evacuation never required 120000 people, maybe 20000 at most, of which 10000 would now be able to return home."
So that's where the radiation ends, huh, Basroil? Just some "small towns in the immediate vicinity," you say?
"and will be more than habitable within 50 years. In fact, no city shows averages over .35microSv (3mSv/year, or the worldwide average from natural sources, and roughly the same as the average exposure to medical radiation)"
DO TELL, Basroil. 50 years, is that so?
"I would suggest you get a professional scintillator if you are so worried about fallout. You'll be able to compare the source map against known Fukushima sources. A simple geiger counter can tell you how much radiation there is, but not what it is. For all you know, there's an old cobalt-60 medical capsule in your back yard and you just mistake it for fallout. Until you can post properly obtained readings (ISO has some good standards on reading radiation) from before and after Fukushima, I cannot tell you if you have any valid points as you have failed to prove your ability to properly use your instruments (like most protestors)."
So which Geiger Counter is Basroil approved?
ubikwit at Jul. 11, 2012 - 01:13AM JST
corruption in the japanese bureaucracy is at ludicrous levels.
the fact that this occurred is a testimony to that act.
the transgression of the secret society power company cretins against the japanese public cannot be covered by the term "shame".
these people are guilty of crimes, and prosecution is necessary.
Fadamor at Jul. 11, 2012 - 02:10AM JST
So is this about a new geiger counter, or have they just made a map based on radiation levels from all over Japan? Sorry if I seem a bit thick but I don't understand what's so special... surely anyone could have mapped the radiation by asking people to input levels into a chart and then displaying that as a colour-coded map.
Gathering aggregate data from multiple sensors can vary the data. By adhering to a single model counter and by measuring from a fixed height AGL (Safecast measures from 1.5 meters AGL - Above Ground Level), they try to eliminate as many variables as possible when compiling the data. What makes the Safecast unit "special" is that it has married the geiger counter with a GPS receiver, so data points get their location automatically added. It's also special in that it monitors not only gamma radiation, but alpha and beta radiation as well. MOST hand-helds only measure gamma. It's only when you get to the upper end of the range before you start to see hand helds that monitor all three.
I can't seem to get the chart to work, I just get a blank screen when I try to bring it up.
wdonseaborg at Jul. 11, 2012 - 05:35AM JST
Nice. Very, very nice, Sean Bonner and Safecast. excellent idea, superbly implemented. My compliments.
JeffLee at Jul. 11, 2012 - 05:55AM JST
Another example of how Japanese industries are excessively insular and in dire need of foreign investment and expertise.
Japan has the lowest inward FDI rate in industrialized world. It pays a steep price for its industrial xenophobia and insularity.
moomoochoo at Jul. 11, 2012 - 12:58PM JST
I don't why I got marked down. I think it's very important to know how these geiger counters compare to existing ones. I'm NOT saying they aren't any good. I just want to see some stats.
basroil at Jul. 11, 2012 - 05:00PM JST
moomoochooJul. 11, 2012 - 12:58PM JST
I don't why I got marked down. I think it's very important to know how these geiger counters compare to existing ones. I'm NOT saying they aren't any good. I just want to see some stats.
Sensor itself is more or less industry standard, the chip controlling the thing is a 5 dollar chip that has a reputation for being fickle in programming but overall average (STM32, was supposed to rival the arduino's 386p but dev side is seriously lacking). Should be more or less identical to any other 2" pancake tube, but nowhere near as useful for beta/gamma detection (only one that matters in the environment, alpha is pretty rare for fallout) as a proper scintillator tube with analysis software.
As with practically any instrument though, the users are far more likely to be the source of error than the machine. Even the safecast guys will tell you that (read their radioactive snow example, which shows how a lack of proper tests can lead you to think naturally occurring radon is fallout if you don't know what to look for), and they do say that their data is not necessarily accurate, but it is fairly consistent (at least the data they collect themselves). When trying to compare data, consistency is often more important than accuracy.
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ExportExpert at Jul. 10, 2012 - 02:08PM JST
Well Done, great initiative.
HowardStern at Jul. 10, 2012 - 02:09PM JST
link is working?
basroil at Jul. 10, 2012 - 02:21PM JST
Very true. Nobody ever actually tried mapping Japan in the past, especially the granite/radon rich areas. Sadly, nobody will ever know due to a lack of original data.
marcelito at Jul. 10, 2012 - 02:44PM JST
Good job guys... "Safecast filled a critical need in Japan by simply quick thinking and quick action "...indeed..and that makes it all the more frustrating and unforgivable that J-government and big companies with all the financial and other resources available to them could not do the same at the time when their own country and people needed it most. TIJ.
smithinjapan at Jul. 10, 2012 - 03:59PM JST
"In one case, the Japanese government kept secret its radiation projection data, which had accurately shown wafts of radiation heading northwestward from Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant, far outside the neat 20-kilometer circle defined by government evacuation orders."
Very sad, indeed. The people you trust to lead and guide you hiding secrets that could kill you. Basroil will no doubt try and twist this fact, as he has claimed flat out evacuations had 'nothing to do with the Fukushima plant', but fortunately there are companies like Safecast to show the truth of things and we don't have to rely on the unreliable, no records kept J-government and TEPCO. Thank you, Safecast.
Onniyama at Jul. 10, 2012 - 04:14PM JST
marcelito. It is not that they could not inform people but rather they did not want to inform people. They have nuclear technology to sell in Asia. They were hoping for as little bad press as possible. Still are!!
Venlo at Jul. 10, 2012 - 04:37PM JST
No doubt "some peeps" on this forum will also say SAFECAST don't know how to properly use Geigerz! lol
ogtob at Jul. 10, 2012 - 04:55PM JST
Their site is lame. None of the map links work! Totally wasted my time.
yasukuni at Jul. 10, 2012 - 05:16PM JST
Cool story.
" by simply quick thinking and quick action"
And don't we need more of that here!
Thunderbird2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 05:40PM JST
I'm confused... just how have they mapped the radiation? Have they been on the ground with these detector GPS thingies? I'm always a bit sceptical of things like this, to be honest.
zichi at Jul. 10, 2012 - 05:47PM JST
I think since shortly after the 3/11 LEVEl 7 nuclear disaster, Safecast have done a good job of mapping the radiation levels in Fukushima, Miyagi, Iwate and other places. They have been on the ground to measure the radiation and also taken car journeys along certain routes. They have also been helped by crowd sourcing from across the whole of the country.
But I must say, their web site used to be more easy to use than what it is at present.
lostrune2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:11PM JST
Hahaha, leave it to a foreigner to do something about it instead of waiting for the government to do it for you (to see some data).
Thunderbird2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:13PM JST
So is this about a new geiger counter, or have they just made a map based on radiation levels from all over Japan? Sorry if I seem a bit thick but I don't understand what's so special... surely anyone could have mapped the radiation by asking people to input levels into a chart and then displaying that as a colour-coded map.
zichi at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:38PM JST
Safecast handed out hundreds of geiger counters.
zichi at Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:40PM JST
Thunderbird2
why don't you just visit the web site and find out for youself?
basroil at Jul. 10, 2012 - 08:59PM JST
Thunderbird2Jul. 10, 2012 - 07:13PM JST
Both a system and hardware. Can't say new hardware though, seems to be based off the same pancake sensor as everything else. Good enough for measuring clicks, but can't tell you what it is from.
Interestingly they validate the fallout maps estimated to the letter (ratio wise), so you can assume that they are reasonably calibrated for typical fallout ratios. Maps need a bit more resolution though, 1 measurement point per sq km isn't nearly enough.
Thunderbird2 at Jul. 10, 2012 - 09:15PM JST
I did visit the site, but it just seems to an ad for a geiger counter.
hatsoff at Jul. 10, 2012 - 09:47PM JST
Well done Safecast. The sentence above is so simple, so true, and was/is apparently so difficult for the government to understand
pointofview at Jul. 10, 2012 - 10:00PM JST
So what are the levels?
moomoochoo at Jul. 10, 2012 - 10:44PM JST
How accurate are these geiger counters? Cheap is great as long it's accurate.
basroil at Jul. 10, 2012 - 10:53PM JST
Thunderbird2Jul. 10, 2012 - 09:15PM JST
You need to go to the blog. They are in it to sell products after all、the map is a cool feature that they advertise as easy to do with the device.
Venlo at Jul. 10, 2012 - 11:50PM JST
So... Basroil, they're just "in the business" to sell products, eh?
I beg to differ, but let's take a look at some of your comments regarding the spread of radioactive fallout from Daiichi, nevertheless.
May I quote.
"A RIVER VALLEY," you say.
So that's where the radiation ends, huh, Basroil? Just some "small towns in the immediate vicinity," you say?
DO TELL, Basroil. 50 years, is that so?
So which Geiger Counter is Basroil approved?
ubikwit at Jul. 11, 2012 - 01:13AM JST
corruption in the japanese bureaucracy is at ludicrous levels.
the fact that this occurred is a testimony to that act.
the transgression of the secret society power company cretins against the japanese public cannot be covered by the term "shame".
these people are guilty of crimes, and prosecution is necessary.
Fadamor at Jul. 11, 2012 - 02:10AM JST
Gathering aggregate data from multiple sensors can vary the data. By adhering to a single model counter and by measuring from a fixed height AGL (Safecast measures from 1.5 meters AGL - Above Ground Level), they try to eliminate as many variables as possible when compiling the data. What makes the Safecast unit "special" is that it has married the geiger counter with a GPS receiver, so data points get their location automatically added. It's also special in that it monitors not only gamma radiation, but alpha and beta radiation as well. MOST hand-helds only measure gamma. It's only when you get to the upper end of the range before you start to see hand helds that monitor all three.
I can't seem to get the chart to work, I just get a blank screen when I try to bring it up.
wdonseaborg at Jul. 11, 2012 - 05:35AM JST
Nice. Very, very nice, Sean Bonner and Safecast. excellent idea, superbly implemented. My compliments.
JeffLee at Jul. 11, 2012 - 05:55AM JST
Another example of how Japanese industries are excessively insular and in dire need of foreign investment and expertise.
Japan has the lowest inward FDI rate in industrialized world. It pays a steep price for its industrial xenophobia and insularity.
moomoochoo at Jul. 11, 2012 - 12:58PM JST
I don't why I got marked down. I think it's very important to know how these geiger counters compare to existing ones. I'm NOT saying they aren't any good. I just want to see some stats.
basroil at Jul. 11, 2012 - 05:00PM JST
moomoochooJul. 11, 2012 - 12:58PM JST
Sensor itself is more or less industry standard, the chip controlling the thing is a 5 dollar chip that has a reputation for being fickle in programming but overall average (STM32, was supposed to rival the arduino's 386p but dev side is seriously lacking). Should be more or less identical to any other 2" pancake tube, but nowhere near as useful for beta/gamma detection (only one that matters in the environment, alpha is pretty rare for fallout) as a proper scintillator tube with analysis software.
As with practically any instrument though, the users are far more likely to be the source of error than the machine. Even the safecast guys will tell you that (read their radioactive snow example, which shows how a lack of proper tests can lead you to think naturally occurring radon is fallout if you don't know what to look for), and they do say that their data is not necessarily accurate, but it is fairly consistent (at least the data they collect themselves). When trying to compare data, consistency is often more important than accuracy.
lrodriguezsosa at Jul. 12, 2012 - 07:37AM JST
LOL. This is all about selling a new gadget.