This silly back and forth will never end. You can only shake your head in disgust.
CVHuan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:39AM JST
Thumbs down me all you want you Nippon extremists, but Japan overall should end her disputes with South Korea, Russia, China, and Taiwan. Otherwise, you are not acting like a peace-loving, civlilized, pacifist nation that you so proclaimed.
CVHuan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:41AM JST
I am shaking my head in disgust at Japan on this.
Wakarimasen at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:45AM JST
This is so ridiculous. We read headlines about tade cooperation, military cooperation, cooperation in talks on N Korea and then this childish, knee jerk stuff. S Korea just as bad.
As for comfort women, this paragraph is misleading - should read "now-elderly"
Seoul is also irked at Tokyo’s refusal to compensate elderly Korean women forced into sexual slavery for Japanese troops during World War II.
danalawton1@yahoo.com at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
Trade between Japan and S. Korea is only done out of necessity and that is it. Look at cars in both markets. Try to find a Korean car in Japan or a Japanese care in S. Korea.... why do you think that is? If S. Korean's do buy Japanese products it is only because they cannot make a similar product. Currently you're starting to see Samsung products being sold in Japan... this is a major victory for S. Korea. Samsung's products have been seen on shelves in the rest of the world for years but Japan managed to keep them out. But now Samsung's price, quality and technology just cannot be overlooked. You definitely know a S. Korean product is good when it is sold right next to NEC in Japan at a lower price.
that korean guy at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
@wakarimasen - i disagree. Seoul, especially president Lee is secretly rejoicing that Japan is taking the reaction that it is taking. With the ruling party in the bribery scandal that's still developing, Lee needs something that can divert public attention from himself and the ruling party. it's almost like he's got TWO free get-out-of-jail cards - one from japan and the other from north korea. in any case, it's a political move from the korean side and the response it garners from japan seems to be of the same nature.
spudman at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
Let the winner of the men's soccer game get the stupid piece of rock. Sad that neighbours hate each other so passionately. Japan has never really faced up to it's aggressive annexation of Korea nearly a century ago. Korea will never forgive unless there is a reconciliation from both sides. Time for the muppet heads of states to act like men.
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
A bunch of school children.
ReformedBasher at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:17PM JST
How very immature of them. And it's the president, no less. Brilliant strategy in improving relations! Bravo!
Hmm, it's the South Koreans, not the North Koreans, who are the good guys, right?
Seriously, all right-wing nutjobs from around the world should all be dumped on an island like these and let the homo sapiens live in peace...
I'd actually like Japan to declare these (literally) rocks Korean and move on too. They're not worth the constant stupidity on both sides.
DoLittleBeLate at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:18PM JST
"All right, children! KNOCK IT OFF! The yard is for everybody to play, let's not start fighting over such small things! Don't make me call your parents! They will ground you for the rest of the day and then you won't be able to play outside anymore. AND they'll take away your playstations!!!"
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:51PM JST
They are South Korean islands, so what's the big deal?
Dog at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:52PM JST
danalawton1@yahoo.comAug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
Currently you're starting to see Samsung products being sold in Japan... this is a major victory for S. Korea.
Korea runs a trade deficit of 10 billion dollars with Japan, nearly all of it is high tech parts. The more products Samsung produces, the bigger deficit Korea will have with japan because 25% of the high tech gadgets in the Samsung products are Japanese made or Japanese patented.
Victory for Japan, wouldn't you say?
BurakuminDes at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:52PM JST
These East Asian mob are so aggressive toward each other - they remind me of Europeans! So similar culturally, yet constantly wanting to puff out their chests over trivial issues. They need to sit down and smoke a peace pipe (or something...)
Dog at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:59PM JST
In Tokyo, Foreign Minister Koichiro Gemba said any such trip “would have a great impact on Japan-South Korea relations” and Japan would “have to respond firmly.”
Why parallel universe does this guy live in?
What firm action is Japan going to take?
Cletus at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:01PM JST
Dog
What firm action is Japan going to take?
They will stomp their feet and call these actions regrettable. That scares everyone when they do that...
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:14PM JST
These islands are critical to Japan's energy future as the territory 200 miles out from them will become sovereign 'land' of whoever owns the islands.
Pretty amazing how many people don't get this.
This issue is entirely about access to resources.
Cricky at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:16PM JST
It's upsetting for Japan to see Korea prosperous, Gold Medals, vibrant economy, international recognition as a market leader, respected as an Asian Tiger. It's upsetting for Japanese Politcians, their fathers taught them that these people were sub human. Their woman loose and for a pittance you could have two. Being out played and out productive, what is there to fall back on but zenephobic retoric that results in a destructive cycle of hate.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:16PM JST
Reformed Basher - "'I7d actually like Japan to declare these (literally) rocks Korean and move on too."
For the reason I stated above, this would be an incredibly stupid thing for JGov to do.
SmithinJapan - "They are South Korean islands, so what's the big deal?"
Access to resources that ownership of these - and other claimed islands - entail.
A Canadian at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:17PM JST
Let's send Noda over there, now that he's survived the no confidence vote, and he and Lee can decide once and for all via rock, paper scissors like children do in the school yard.
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:22PM JST
These islands are critical to Japan's energy future as the territory 200 miles out from them will become sovereign 'land' of whoever owns the islands.
Pretty amazing how many people don't get this.
And you're acting as if Japan is the only country that matters.
A Canadian at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:23PM JST
SushiSake3 is right, this is all about natural resources, and it's an important topic, which is why they need to stop acting like children, grow up and sit down to discuss it as adults. Why can't there be joint ownership of the land and resources?
codomo at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:24PM JST
i know that japan will only send a message of "strongly regret" after that guy arrived on the rocks. nothing will happen and people just forget this after several days passed.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:25PM JST
Cricky - "Being out played and out productive, what is there to fall back on but zenephobic retoric that results in a destructive cycle of hate."
"cycle of hate"? Are you serious?
It's primarily about resources.
Tokiyo at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:25PM JST
SushiSake3 is right, this is all about natural resources, and it's an important topic, which is why they need to stop acting like children, grow up and sit down to discuss it as adults. Why can't there be joint ownership of the land and resources?
The same reason why we can have good politicians, anywhere?
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:26PM JST
A Canadian - "Why can't there be joint ownership of the land and resources?"
Excellent idea. I've often wondered that myself.
Ditto with the Chinese and access to undersea gas resources.
DoLittleBeLate at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:35PM JST
These islands are critical to Japan's energy future as the territory 200 miles out from them will become sovereign 'land' of whoever owns the islands. Pretty amazing how many people don't get this.
It would be amazing if people would "get" it, because that's pure nonsense. Japan will seize to exist if they lose a couple of rocks in the middle of nowhere? Really? In that case, not a very strong country. Maybe Japan's influence in the world stage is very small because people "get" things like that.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:38PM JST
DolittleBeLate - " In that case, not a very strong country."
You're right, it's not. Japan imports virtually all it's energy that it doesn't generate from NPP.
And with access to dwindling resources and rare earths becoming tighter and countries like China imposing export bans, energy security is becoming a greater isse virtually everywhere.
Which is why Japan needs to expand its resource base as much as possible, and why these islands are important.
Ronald F Stark at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:45PM JST
Please retaliate by banning all South Korean pop music! The Japanese stuff is bad enough!
marcelito at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:52PM JST
Send in admiral Ishihara...
Btw, there is no reason why the visit is going ahead now- my ass. Diverting political
heat from the president over his family corruption charges is behind the timing.
Dog at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:53PM JST
SushiSake3Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:14PM JST
These islands are critical to Japan's energy future as the territory 200 miles out from them will become sovereign 'land' of whoever owns the islands.Pretty amazing how many people don't get this.
If japan had her way, the whole Pacific would be aknowledged by the rest of the world as being critical to Japan's energy future.
Japan is greedy.
Cricky at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:05PM JST
SUHISAKI3
It might be about resources, but there is a Historical pedegry that influences this particular ta ta te, one upmanship and loss of face are defiantly on the board. It's 2012 and colonialism for these countries are the sticking problem. One wants an actknowedgement, the other a denial. An over view of the historical differences is impossible. Japan re-writes history and claims innocence, on their version (total denial) of facts. Korea take umbradge at this, thus the cycle.
ExportExpert at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:16PM JST
danalawton1@yahoo.com
You definitely know a S. Korean product is good when it is sold right next to NEC in Japan at a lower price
Completely incorrect, korean products are sold next to japanese products because the won is so cheap nothing to do with being good.
Wakarimasen at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:24PM JST
We all know it is about resources. Almost all territorial disputes are, especially in this case where there is almost no population. Point is the ridiculous posturing by both governments. Sure, it is not unique to Asia (look at the Falklands dispute), but nevertheless still worthy of comment as being silly. especially as the two countries have so many other common interests and goals.
DoLittleBeLate at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:38PM JST
Japan imports virtually all it's energy that it doesn't generate from NPP.
And international trade is bad because...? Right, the "right to wage war and hate, and not accept the consequences of being an unsocial %&$#".
Do not count your enemies. Count your friends instead. That is more informative.
CrazyJoe at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:47PM JST
Japan does not want Takeshima (Dokdo), they just don't want to lose it.
billyshears at Aug. 10, 2012 - 03:04PM JST
All these territorial disputes Japan has (plus all the territorial disputes China has with nearly every other country in the region) are impossible to resolve outside of agreements to share resources or war. As both seem highly unlikely, and all of the countries involved will never willingly step down from their positions, these kind of annoying spats will continue into the foreseeable future. Outsiders trying to appropriate blame on one particular country is an exercise in futility. I think for non-Japanese living in Japan it creates yet another feeling of unease to go along with concerns about the regular procession of natural disasters, nuclear fall-out in the air and food, other environmental problems, a lack of natural resources, an aging society, a swiftly declining economy and a political ineptitude to deal with many of these problems quickly and effectively.
Green Panda at Aug. 10, 2012 - 03:46PM JST
Japan is a peaceful country now. What can they do besides bend over and let South Korea take them?
Stoneofsilence at Aug. 10, 2012 - 04:43PM JST
I know that South Korea has many legitimate grievances against Japan and these are accepted by a fair number of Japanese who are ashamed of their colonial past - and certainly with respect to the "comfort" women issue, this could have been resolved many years ago - and Japan should have shown goodwill to the Korean people. With respect to territorial disputes in the region, and a visit to wikipedia will confirm that there are numerous disputes over territory - mostly islands, I feel that rather than having protracted disputes that fester and might be flash points in the future, all the disputants should simply share (equally) the territory - without any military involvement - there should be a civil presence only and that if there are any minerals or resources in the area - the first issue should be sustainability regarding the immediate environment, secondly if they can be obtained without compromising the ecology - then it should be a case of pragmaticism - irrespective of the strength of the claim - the fact that in international law any party has a legitimate claim should be respected - and here in the interest of region stability every country should have a share and cooperate equally. In the case of China which has many claims, this would undoubtedly work in their favour, since she could 1. save on military expenditure 2. improve ties with her neighbours 3. benefit economically. A pragmatic and peaceful, cooperative approach to territorial disputes should be adopted. This from my perspective is how sovereignty issues should be resolved in the future. The alternative is frightening, since all disputants in the region have a strong military and civil mariime presence (fishing, cargo, tankers) which means there is a very real danger of conflict. I have read that in China they are talking of a naval conflict between Cihina and Japan in 2014. This is of course fed by animosity against Japan - which is iagain n part legitimate - but today when countries should live by the rule of law, and China is moving towards a new future, its leaders should show that with its new prosperity and power that it can be as wise as Confucious and Buddha (especially the latter) and seek a path that brings harmony rather than destruction. Japan for its part, should learn to respect the new geographical configuration and show that it too can lead the way on a similar path. Every country in the region should be proud of its heritage - but why not be prouder still and reach out across the differences and resolve all the territorial disputes through sharing and caring.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 04:52PM JST
Stoneofsilence - beautifully put and I agree wholeheatedly, however the problem - as usual - is that our elected leaders are prideful men.
And as another poster stated, want to save face.
Backing down in this case really is not an option.
Sharing is probably the best of the worst options.
tian4670 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 04:53PM JST
What about Kuril, and Senkaku?
If Japan can't invent anything innovative on these, it will be very busy protesting, denying etc. It will have zero time for more productive businesses. Things (even outside territory dispute) will get worse when everyone think they cannot get any worse.
umbrella at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:10PM JST
The South Korean leader visits South Korean territory. Wow, big news!!
Bob Sneider at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:13PM JST
In all its territorial disputes, Japan doesn't have a legitimate claim in a single one. Japan can't seem to let go of its expansionist policies from its imperialist days.
Pukey2 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:20PM JST
Hypocrisy at its finest.
voiceofokinawa at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:21PM JST
Maybe, Tokyo is looking forward to the U.S.F.J. coming to their aid for this diehard territorial dispute with South Korea because of the Japan-U.S. Security Treaty, just as it is doing so for the Senkaku issue. But would the U.S. come to Japan's aid if conflicts really flared up? I doubt it.
Territorial issues must be solved bilaterally between the countries concerned. That, I think, is the U.S.'s covert stance toward these issues. If so, why does the U.S. keep saying hypocritically that this excessive military presence in Okinawa and the deployment of the Osprey to Futenma is for defense of Japan and scaring off of an enemy invasion?
Takeshima is already controled by South Korea and so is the so-called Northern Territory by Russia. I want to hear what U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Cliknton would say about these issues.
NeverSubmit at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:36PM JST
And a day before the soccer game. Beautiful timing.
If South Korea wins it'll be a real kick in the gut, but on the other hand, the Japanese team has a real chance to avenge this if they win.
voiceofokinawa at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:38PM JST
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has already said the Senkaku Islands fall within a category covered by the Japan-U.S. Security Treaty. So what she must explain is why Takeshima and the Northern Territory do or do not.
Serrano at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:43PM JST
Gemba: "I don't know when he ( Lee ) will go back to South Korea"
As far as Lee and the rest of the Koreans are concerned, he never left South Korea.
Farmboy at Aug. 10, 2012 - 06:07PM JST
Here is a nice article with lots of good pictures of the place. It says the dispute started in the 15th century, so I guess it will go on a bit longer. I personally think the Japanese case is stronger with the Senkakus. This one seems a bit iffy, but I haven't explored it in depth. There is some decent evidence on both sides.
These islands belong to South Korea in the same way that the Senkakus belong to Japan. The Japanese government is one of the premier two-faced organizations on this planet, and it is horribly disgusting. Not to be so was definitely one of the lessons they should have learned during WWII, but didnt.
Still, there is no reason for the South Korean President to visit the Liancourt Rocks except to make a show for the home crowd of pissing off Japan, and it thoroughly immature and contemptible.
Also, conducting military exercises there, in Japan's face is in the same boat. Yeah, its their territory, but still, having the exercises in a neighbor's face is unnecessarily provocative. Its childish even.
Farmboy at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:04PM JST
These islands belong to South Korea in the same way that the Senkakus belong to Japan.
Yes, very much the same way because both issues require real depth of study, but everyone is just too comfortable having opinions without doing any work. If it were that easy, with no valid points on one side or the other, it would have been settled long ago. The issue is fairly complex, even without all the strong feelings people have.
Hikozaemon at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:09PM JST
You can always tell when a Korean leader is on the way out or losing popularity by the way they hoist up the nationalist pinata claims against Japan.
This visit is just a move of desperation by Lee to try to recover some popularity following scandals around his family and a nosedive in popularity ahead of a presidential election he is about to get creamed in.
It's a shame - I always liked Japan born president Lee - he was a big improvement from Roh, and generally constructive about relations with Japan.
Last desperate move of an unpopular leader on the way out who has completely lost his sense of self respect trying to get nationalist votes.
A sad and silly end to what I think has been an otherwise pretty good term for Japan-Korea relations.
Peace
Hikozaemon at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:11PM JST
Actually, I wonder when it was since a Korean president last visited Shimane Prefecture? They should send him a fruit basket or something.
NeverSubmit at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:44PM JST
As for the US-Japan mutual defense treaty it only applies to territory currently under Japanese administration.
Hence, the Kuril islands and Takeshima islands aren't covered.
Skeeter27 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:49PM JST
They are tiny little outcropping of worthless rocks! Ok maybe there is some natural reserves under the sea beds. But maybe Santa Clause will deliver Christmas presents early too!!
Disputed territories?? OK Noda if this is Japan then YOU GO THERE!!! See how China or South Korea react! Same goes for the 4 islands off the NE part of Hokaido! If you really feel these are Japanese why don't you ply your butts up there!?!?!
Ahhhh that is right, IF you really thought it was Japanese you would go there!!! Now I might be wrong but to my knowledge you nor not a single government official has been to any of these places!!
Lastly, Japan needs to take care of people at home living in shelters still, this malarky is stupid waste of time and money!
Sorry I now I said, "lastly", but lets say for sake of argument that China can somehow show the islands are in fact Chinese then it is kinda funny that Tokyo own land from the family they might be able to buy from the Kurasawa family. If this is in fact the case then it would be like a Chinese man buying land in Niigata the land is his, yes, but it does not make the land Chinese
It appears that the Department has taken the position that these rocks belong to Japan and has so informed the Korean >Ambassador in Washington.
YuriOtani at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:22PM JST
Guess President Lee needs political support back home. Suppose now the Japanese roosters will start to crow. This is so predictable it becomes a bore. Japan drop all claims to the Liancourt Rocks and concentrate on fights we can win. Like clean renewable energy in Japan. How about rebuilding from the tsunami? or how about improving the lives of the retired people? So much to do and we worry about rocks.
presto345 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:30PM JST
Still, there is no reason for the South Korean President to visit the Liancourt Rocks except to make a show for the home crowd of pissing off Japan, and it thoroughly immature and contemptible.
Also, conducting military exercises there, in Japan's face is in the same boat. Yeah, its their territory, but still, having the exercises in a neighbor's face is unnecessarily provocative. Its childish even.
Perhaps Japan does not have any legal rights to the islands. But the climate Lee is trying to create IS disgusting and add to that all above adjectives. Not something you expect from a real politician, diplomat and leader.
I continue to be amazed at the animosity that still exists in the axis of the Asian nations, the territorial disputes. China being a major player trying to perhaps gain hegemony in the region, Korea and Japan, the Philippines and others not wanting to be outdone. Me thinking, 'yeah, this is Asia, not Europe where things are done a bit differently'. Or am I missing something?
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:35PM JST
“I told him I have no understanding of why President Lee visited the islands at this time,”
That's because you have little to no idea of politics, Gemba, and should never have been selected for the position you're in. gee... I wonder why he might have visited? Let's see... denial of atrocities and sexual slavery in Korea and China, stepped up rhetoric from Japan about the islands and the desire to 'buy' and put people and defense forces on some, radicals talking about having nuclear weapons on Japanese soil, the constant bombast from politicians here on any island issue, Japan sending its coast guard wherever it pleases around the world and claiming its justified as defense, the constant white-washing in textbooks and overall denial of history... and the list goes on.
Gemba, he is visiting South Korean soil... he never entered Japan. You need to get that through you're thick skull.
As for needing political points, perhaps that's in part why Lee did it, but any Japanese (or apologist) on here pointing that out need only point in his/her backyard to see the politicians here doing exactly the same thing. When did Japan's recent island rhetoric get kicked up a notch? when the DPJ fell to its lowest ratings, and when issues were focused on mishandling of last year's crises, including the ongoing crisis at the Fukushima plant.
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:55PM JST
oldsanno: "It appears that the Department has taken the position that these rocks belong to Japan and has so informed the Korean >Ambassador in Washington."
Wow... how old is that? and a quotation from Wikipedia nonetheless! The US a few years back went back on recognition of the islands being administered by Japan and rightfully pointed out they are lived on and administered by South Korea -- one of the reasons Japan claims the Senkakus belong to them, minus the living on part, by the way -- and it infuriated Japanese right-wingers and the government.
Dokdo is South Korean territory, and Japan has no rightful claim to it. For the same reasons why over time the islands will be cemented as South Korean territory once and for all (ie. again, living on, administering, protecting) Japan has the better claim to the Senkakus... unless they keep pushing China, of course.
YuriOtani at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:56PM JST
smithinjapan, not everyone in Japan denies what happened in the PAST. My parents were children when this happened and even they are now very old. There is no link to anyone in Japans current government and anyone responsible is either deceased or very very old. The "white-washed" textbooks are not used in every school and most kids really do not care. They are like children in most countries that worry more about now than before their parents were born.
About the radicals, well there are nuts in every country and so sorry we have free speech in Japan, well at least most of the time. When these people start crowing it lets people know where they stand on the issues. About the Presidents visit, it was done for political reasons. He rang the bell and Japans politicians started salivating on command. He has now taken a "tough" stand against Japan and deserves to be reelected.
oldsanno at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:12PM JST
sij
and a quotation from Wikipedia nonetheless!
No, the source is not Wikipedia.
Excerpted from Confidential Security Information about Liancourt Rocks on Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
it is a work of the United States federal government (see 17 U.S.C. 105)
WebsterHuron at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:12PM JST
Yet more evidence of Japan's diminished global standing and influence. The Chinese, Russians, and Koreans continuously disrespect Japanese territorial claims, and what are the Japanese going to do about it? That's right. Absolutely nothing. Kind of hard to have a consistent, unified foreign policy when you've had 9 foreign ministers in 5 years.
The forefathers of modern Japan must be rolling in their graves right now.
shanabelle at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:23PM JST
Lee's final 'look at me' moment on his way out....
I think that's why the Japan Gov are trying to ignore it as much as possible...
this issue needs to be settled sometime though, the Senkaku islands too.
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:35PM JST
YuriOtani: "They are like children in most countries that worry more about now than before their parents were born."
There is absolutely nothing wrong with worrying about the present, granted -- in fact it would be wrong NOT to -- but doing it with no history as to WHY you might worry presents nothing but problems. And yes, all of the history texts in schools are white-washed. Japan has a standard curriculum, with the texts approved by nationalists with themselves little to no denial of the past, or at least in complete denial.
shanabelle: "Lee's final 'look at me' moment on his way out...."
Quick question: even if Lee were to go out tomorrow, which I doubt, how many Japanese PMs did he 'outlive'? (zing!).
"I think that's why the Japan Gov are trying to ignore it as much as possible..."
They're 'ignoring it' by summoning in ambassadors and recalling envoys? Those are the most extreme measures they can take at present, as well as making media releases saying, "... I can't understand why this happened...". You've got to be kidding!
"...this issue needs to be settled sometime though, the Senkaku islands too."
We agree there, at least. The sooner Japan acknowledges the islands as South Korea, the better. Why should SK contest its own land?
It"S ME at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:40PM JST
Smithinjapan.
Got to disagree they did a study in germany and most teens don't know about the Berlin wall or what it meant.
Now that is scary as the wall came down in 1989.
Want to know them about older events it is just figures and dates for them as they didn't live them.
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:42PM JST
oldsanno: "Excerpted from Confidential Security Information about Liancourt Rocks on Wikipedia"
So the source is not Wikipedia... your source is just... wait... Wikipedia? And how old is that document again? Regardless, it has nothing to do with the US; it's a dispute between Japan and Korea over islands that Korea lives on and administers. Holding up a aged sheet of paper from a government that has nothing to do with it really doesn't mean anything. It'd be like me going to islands in the Philippines and saying, "Look, Japan signed this paper saying this is mine, n'kay?"
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:44PM JST
Re. my earlier post: "...with themselves little to no denial of the past, or at least in complete denial."
Sorry, was thinking ahead. That should read, "...with themselves little to no KNOWLEDGE of the past, or at least in complete denial." My bad.
It"S ME at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:53PM JST
Not so much denial but part of history lessons. Try European history for over 2 millennia.
Myself studied classic, medieval and 20th century history(separate class). Granted we didn't cover vietnam, etc back than,
YuriOtani at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:59PM JST
smithinjapan, which textbooks are you referring? Please provide names, authors and publishing houses. Am taking some college courses here in America. The "children" are woefully ignorant even about modern events. The invasion of Iraq is ancient news and the Berlin what? My English is not the best but I do not write in text!
Most people in Japan will probably ignore this news. It is not out of being "nationalist" but having better things to do and think about. Oh when have I written these rocks belong to Japan?
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:23AM JST
CVHuanAug. 10, 2012 - 11:39AM JST
Thumbs down me all you want you Nippon extremists, but Japan overall should end her disputes with South Korea, >Russia, China, and Taiwan. Otherwise, you are not acting like a peace-loving, civlilized, pacifist nation that you so >proclaimed.
This is rich. A China supporter worried about Japanese "extremists"?
China has 17 disputes with her neighbotrs, Japan has 4.
China is the only one thae uses it;s muscle to bully it's neighbors and is regarded
as a threat by all of Asia.
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:29AM JST
The way I remember this, the Liancourt Rocks were considered Japanese. After WWII the US used it as a live
weapons training ground. There was an unfortunate incident where South Korean fishermen disregarded the
no-entry warning and died as a result of U.S. bombing training.
In contradiction to the U.S. position, Syngman Rhee unilaterally re-drew South Koreas
borders and claimed these rocks. This naturally rsulted in a dispute and South Korea unilaterally put coast guard
on the islands and "occupied" them. Japan has twice attempted to resolve the issue by bringing to the OCJ for settlement but both times South Korea has refused. So the situation remains unchanged both sides claiming the
rocks as theirs. Did I leave anything out?
GW at Aug. 11, 2012 - 01:14AM JST
Bottom line is this, Japan is in serious decline, SO its neighbours are MUCH less inclined to pay Tokyo much heed Japan is going to have to get used to it because Japan is now going from weakness to more & more weakness.
Its a bitter pill to swallow but Japan wont have much choice the way things are going, shoganai ne!
Denon at Aug. 11, 2012 - 01:17AM JST
Yes, very much the same way because both issues require real depth of study, but everyone is just too comfortable having opinions without doing any work.
If you are accusing me of not going back to the 15th century like you, I am guilty as charged. But that would make about as much sense as giving France back to the Gauls. The Gauls are all gone you say? Well, so are the Koreans of 600 years ago!
The simple fact is that South Korea has held them for decades militarily. And since all treaties on uninhabited land claims have absolutely no teeth, the law of the jungle applies. I wish it were not so, but it is so. But even if I didnt, still, what people did 600 years ago is really of no interest to me in such matters. Its the living that counts.
And before anyone brings up the two guys living there, that is a sham for show, and we all know it. If one single man had been born and raised there and wanted to live there, I would support his country's claim to Liancourt Rocks, even if his citizenship was Panamanian!
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 02:30AM JST
This is a very good issue to convince the world, America has no intention to solve any territorial disputes but stealing profits from the conflicted parties, you wont see US interferences in Liancourt rocks, because there doesnt discover any oil! But she has provoked troubles in south China sea especially the Sparatly islands siding with the philipines and vietnam! The American and other western oil companies has connections with those countries and they were sure gaining a larger chunk of oil profits if the US military involvment over those disputes!
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 02:32AM JST
I am not very interesting with the Liancourt rocks dispute between the ROK and Japan but I think their military intelligence cooperations will be posponted indefinately! Well done President Lee!
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 03:54AM JST
Seems like there is a rotation of 'pissing' from' all the neighbours of Japan, Russian PM set foot on Kurile, the south Korean president set foot on Dokdo and Chinese vessels storming the Senkaku island! Why Japan couldnt gain respect from all these countries?
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 04:33AM JST
just-a-bigguy no it is just politics as usual. The President of the Republic of Korea will see his poll numbers jump. Though what do you expect in a country where more people hate Japan than the enemy to the north?
issa1 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 04:39AM JST
My blood boils of anger to know that most Japanese have not given due attention to issues of the islands that are occupied improperly,unfortunately that will it be forgotten short time
I feel that my ancestors who gave their lives to defend this country
are rolling in their graves right now!
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:31AM JST
vg866 I am not at all "pro Korean" just think this is not a fight worth fighting. If President Lee thinks he can give the middle finger to Japan and get away with it? He must know Japan can extend the middle finger as well. Like oh working with the Peoples Republic of Korea, first with food then with low level relations then who knows. What you write confirms the poll. Why should Japan play nice with South Korea?
sfjp330 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:37AM JST
YuriOtani Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:31AM JST If President Lee thinks he can give the middle finger to Japan and get away with it?
What a short memory. President Lee has always favored improving economic ties with Japan rather than dwelling on unresolved issues of the past. But Lee was pushed by Japanese politicians to take this hard line position. This kind of political decision can improve his approval rating In South Korea. I doubt relations between Japan and South Korea are harmed by Lee’s visit to the islands, the blame should ultimately fall on Japan.
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:03PM JST
sfip330, no this is harming relations. No if relations are harmed it is his fault. If it was not this issue, it would be something else.
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:06PM JST
sfip330, no this is harming relations. No if relations are harmed it is his fault. If it was not this issue, it would be something else.
That depends on who the islands really belong to.
Denon at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:33PM JST
vg866, you typical rightist/conservative does not give a damn about right and wrong. For them its about winning and gaining. For them, lying, killing, cheating and stealing are just part of the game, and when they get control you get wars like WWII, the end of which is at the crux of this issue. Sadly too many of them still have control, and whereas the Japanese government should gladly give over these rocks as penance for Japanese brutality in Korea, the rightists/conservatives did not learn a thing from the war.
Jmk149 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:34PM JST
Lee buying bak is the worst political president, ever. period.
I voted for him almost 5 years ago, only to support his economic decisions.
Not only he was poor at the economic situations he is worse at making political behavior such as this.
Dokdo has been politically boiling island for both of countries and his decision to go there as a president is as bad as it can be.
Why not go to a Fiji island instead?
Farmboy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 02:20PM JST
If you are accusing me of not going back to the 15th century like you, I am guilty as charged. But that would make about as much sense as giving France back to the Gauls. The Gauls are all gone you say? Well, so are the Koreans of 600 years ago!
It really makes no difference to me whether you go back to the 15th century or not, and I'm not motivated to accuse you of not going anywhere. These lumps in the sea don't belong to me, so Korean lumps or Japanese lumps, either way is okay, from my point of view. I do, however, see it as an interesting issue, and I think to understand the issue, one has to examine its history, international law, and all claims on both sides. To decide the issue, this will have to be done, and I hope both sides will get together and make some fair agreement.
However, more often than not, people who have a bone to pick about Koreans or Japanese use issues like this as a vehicle to express their unpleasant feelings....no analysis, just bad feelings. You use words like, "horribly disgusting" describing the Japanese, and "immature and contemptible" regarding the Koreans, so I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that you might be in this category.
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 04:45PM JST
Being the president of RoK is like sitting on a hot seat! There is a strong pro-North Korean mania in the south! If President Lee bending too much to US/Japan alliances will be blashed potrayed being a 'puppet'! Thats why he needs to stand firm to let go those domestic pressure sometimes by irking Japan to show his fellow countrymen that he does has a spine! For President Lee besides Japan there doesnt exist a country good to 'piss off', US,China, Russia were all big brothers if made anyone of them angry is definately unwise! Pissoff japan.....so what? South Korea has always recalls her ambassdor in Tokyo and what so if Tokyo recalls their own, maybe those leftists,rightists,extremeists in South Korea might applaud him at the same moment.
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 09:22PM JST
1954, 1962...and now Japan will take challenge South Korea to settle this issue
for good at the ICJ.
And South Korea will refuse again. Refusing, especially repeatedly refusing,raises
doubts as to just how confident South Korea really is in it;s claim of ownership if it
were argued in a neutral court of law.
South Korean should consider how the world sees them, do they want't to become a
respectedglobal power? Or a country that appears petty and small?
Serrano at Aug. 11, 2012 - 09:34PM JST
Are they still arguing about those rocks? Jeez...
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 11:53PM JST
vg866Aug. 11, 2012 - 10:38PM JST
OssanAmerica
"1954, 1962...and now Japan will take challenge South Korea to settle this issue for good at the ICJ. And South Korea will refuse again. Refusing, especially repeatedly refusing,raises doubts as to just how confident South Korea really is in it;s claim of ownership if it were argued in a neutral court of law. South Korean should consider how the world sees them, do they want't to become a respectedglobal power? Or a country that appears petty and small?"
Lol, this is why Koreans laugh at Japan. You are so misinformed, its not even funny.
Misinfoprmed? LOL
Did Skorea refuse to go to the ICJ in 1954? YES
Did SKorea refuse to go to the ICJ in 1962? YES
Your LAME EXCUSES are why South Korea is the laughing stock of the world.
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 11:53PM JST
Again, Japan should drop claims on the Liancourt Rocks. Every dog has its day and it will be seen if good relations are possible.
OssanAmerica at Aug. 12, 2012 - 02:02AM JST
vg866Aug. 12, 2012 - 12:36AM JST
"OssanAmerica
Misinformed? LOL Did Skorea refuse to go to the ICJ in 1954? YES Did SKorea refuse to go to the ICJ in 1962? YES Your LAME EXCUSES are why South Korea is the laughing stock of the world."
South Korea did not even have a functioning government in 1962. More specifically the government was overthrown in >1961 by Park Chung Hee. The Japanese government themselves did not recognize Parks rule until 1965. Thats why >they made the request in 1962. They knew that the non-existent South Korean government would not reply. A pretty >shallow and pathetic moment in history if you ask me. Act tough when no ones around.
So you are saying the Republic of Korea ceased to exist in 1961? What did it become?
You are confusing a change in adminstration with a change in regime.
And again. that's a lame excuse. What was the excuse in 1954?
That the Korean War had just ended? Well that didn';t stop them from declaring the island as their own
dosregarding not only Japan's but the U.S,. position as well.
Theres a reason why Japan hasn't made another request in over 50 years. Its because they know they'll lose.
That's really very funny comming from a Korea supporter. It;s South Korea that has refused to go before the ICJ TWICE. Japan has tried to do so twice. It doesn't take a genius to figure out which side knows who is afraid of
losing.Your own argument fails logically because if Japan knew they would lose they would never have tried in the first place. .
OssanAmerica at Aug. 12, 2012 - 02:03AM JST
g866Aug. 12, 2012 - 12:36AM JST
The ICJ sides with the country that practices sovereignty over a territory. Lee visiting the island is just one of many >examples of Korea demonstrating sovereignty over Dokdo. Pretty much any scholar/lawyer/judge would side with >Korea on this issue in court.
Then why does South Korea keep refusing?
Your own arguments support South Korea agreeing to go before the ICJ, don't you see that?
Only uninformed right wingers such as yourself can't seem to grasp this fact. You are controlled by emotions rather >then facts. You probably get your information from right wing blogs and 2ch. Just quit posting, you're embarrassing >your cause even further.
So since you cannot refute that South Korea is afraid of going before the ICJ, you now resort to name calling
Very mature. By advocating that the matter be settled before a neautral forum, that makes me a "right-winger"?
You guys can't even get anywhere near the island, you honestly expect the ICJ to side with Japan?
I honedstly expect the ICJ to side with whichever country has the valid argument and can support it.
Cleartly South Korea can't, so they grabbed the island physically by force.
Well let's see what happemns now when Japan does make another effort to settle this issue at thye ICJ.
Will South Korea display maturity and civility by agreeing to go before the ICJ?
Or will hey refuse again?
If so, what lame excuse are they going to come up with now?
PT24881 at Aug. 12, 2012 - 02:18AM JST
The Korean president has chosen a bad option to boost his poll scores, the FM Gemba reacted with the worst option by recalling the J ambassador in Seoul -- easy to overreact but what is more complicated will be next step if has a game plan ? You cannot fight on all fronts, actions & degree of pressure needed to be prioritized as per a pertinent dosage.
You are trapped I am afraid Mr. Gemba !
Of course, the most embarrassed party is the American big brother -- it was almost ok since a few months to have both participated in joint exercise.. Almost...helas !
OssanAmerica at Aug. 12, 2012 - 11:20AM JST
vg866Aug. 12, 2012 - 08:53AM JST
Your excuses for why South Korea refused Japan's suggestion to settle at the ICJ in 1962 are lame excuses.
Please don't insult the world's collective intelligence with your absurd explanations.
And you haven't even attempted to explain 1954.
edhan at Aug. 12, 2012 - 01:13PM JST
Dokdo is a Korean territory. The following are some excerpts from various researches from elite universities includding Standford.
With the beginning of the Meiji Restoration in 1868, the Japanese government began compiling land registers and bthe Meiji government made it clear in 1877 that Ulleung Island and Dokdo were Korean territory, saying they had nothing to do with Japan.
Hosaka, a Japanese-born academic, says he bought the book from a dealer who specializes in old Japanese maps. He has also found other complete maps of Japan that do not include Dokdo.
Japan’s claims of sovereignty on Dokdo are closely related to its attempt to justify its early imperialist expansion in 1905. Thus, Japan’s claiming of Dokdo was a part of its imperial-colonial expansionism design which made Korea the first victim of Japan. In the furtherance of this attitude, the Japanese extreme rightists glamorize the past imperialist appetite and colonial occupation, invasion, and bringing aggressive war and various war crimes.
Along with the Yasukuni Shrine issue and the controversy over Japan’s distortion of historical facts in middle and high school student textbooks, this sovereignty controversy about Dokdo, backed by national sentiment, has been functioning as one of the most serious barriers to better relations between Korea and Japan.
There are historical evidences that Korean title to Dokdo dates back to the Sixth century.
Yuji Hosaka, Japanese professor, states that another couple of historic Japanese maps have been discovered that do not include Korea’s Dokdo islets as part of Japanese territory.
Measuring 115 cm by 123 cm, one map was produced by the Japanese Army in 1877 and depicts the country’s sovereign territory in detail, but does not contain Dokdo. In 1889, Japanese surveyors created the country’s first-ever map on a 200,000:1 scale compiled from all of the maps that had been produced until that time, but even that makes no reference to Dokdo, Hosaka said.
Japan should stop making distorted and false claims on many historical events and data.
How would you feel if Korea started to claim that Honshu is a Korean island and start publishing textbooks and make stories as it is true.
edhan at Aug. 12, 2012 - 01:24PM JST
ICJ is heavily lobbied by Japan and believe one of the court member is Japanese. So, why should Korean take this case to ICJ? But, mostly, it is a ridiculous for someone to claim that is not his and start falsifying documents and the history. It tells a lot about his integrity and character.
ChessGM at Aug. 12, 2012 - 01:30PM JST
**@edhan: **
It is Stanford, not Standford. Moreover, the Stanford documents, posted by Farmboy, show that legal experts side with Japan's claims of ownership over the Dokdo.
fivegogo2003@yahoo.com at Aug. 12, 2012 - 03:17PM JST
Can it be, South Korea is in denial, shouldn't they pay a closer attention to healing their country by reuniting with their Northern brother rather then these islands?
Hide Suzuki at Aug. 12, 2012 - 03:35PM JST
@vg866
"this is why Koreans laugh at Japan"
No, Koreans are too worked up to laugh at anything related to Japan, just like you LOL. Relax dude, you are about to have a heart attack. take it easy and enjoy life if at all possible LOL
Hikozaemon at Aug. 12, 2012 - 09:50PM JST
I think this is great - at least it will delay that $500 billion transfer to help bolster the ROK economy for no purpose I can currently fathom, given Japan's own economic problems. I think Lee's visit was timed great. Keep my tax money here at least!
OssanAmerica at Aug. 14, 2012 - 12:39AM JST
vg866Aug. 12, 2012 - 02:21PM JST
"Ossan
Your excuses for why South Korea refused Japan's suggestion to settle at the ICJ in 1962 are lame excuses. Please don't insult the world's collective intelligence with your absurd explanations. And you haven't even attempted to explain 1954."
My explanation is lame? No buddy, whats lame is the fact that the Japanese government sent a request to a >government that no longer exists. No different from a scrawny kid acting tough when no ones around. Thats what >Japan is.
Japans request occurred in 1962. The 2nd republic was overthrown in 1961 and replaced by a military dictatorship which the Japanese government did not even recognize as legitimate until 1965.
Yes lame. Why then did the South Korean government agree to settle to issue at the ICJ in 1965?????
If Japan was in any ways serious about this dispute then they would make another request within the last 50 years >but no, they're too chicken because they know they'll lose.
This may come as news to you but people who know they will lose don;t start a court case.Too much sense?
And Japan has alreadystated they are going to take South Korea to the ICJ andSouth Korea has already very predicatably refused. Gee, which one is the "chicken"?
Study how the ICJ functions or how territorial disputes are settled. Japan would get crushed in pretty much any court. >Exactly what claim does Japan have over the islands? Nothing.
Excellent arguments fopr South Korea to agree to settling at the ICJ!!!
Yet South Koreas refuses. Cowardice? They have no evidece? No confidence?
OssanAmerica at Aug. 14, 2012 - 12:40AM JST
edhanAug. 12, 2012 - 01:13PM JST
Dokdo is a Korean territory. The following are some excerpts from various researches from elite universities includding >Standford.
More excellemt reapons for South Korea to settle at the ICJ!!
nigelboy at Aug. 14, 2012 - 01:02AM JST
South Korea did not even have a functioning government in 1962. More specifically the government was overthrown in 1961 by Park Chung Hee. The Japanese government themselves did not recognize Parks rule until 1965. Thats why they made the request in 1962. They knew that the non-existent South Korean government would not reply. A pretty shallow and pathetic moment in history if you ask me. Act tough when no ones around.
Non existent? The request in 1962 came from Minister of Foreign Affairs Ohira to Kim Jon Pil who was a head of Korean Central Intelligence Agency under Park Chung Hee.
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CVHuan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:31AM JST
Japan, get over it. Move on!
paulinusa at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:34AM JST
This silly back and forth will never end. You can only shake your head in disgust.
CVHuan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:39AM JST
Thumbs down me all you want you Nippon extremists, but Japan overall should end her disputes with South Korea, Russia, China, and Taiwan. Otherwise, you are not acting like a peace-loving, civlilized, pacifist nation that you so proclaimed.
CVHuan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:41AM JST
I am shaking my head in disgust at Japan on this.
Wakarimasen at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:45AM JST
This is so ridiculous. We read headlines about tade cooperation, military cooperation, cooperation in talks on N Korea and then this childish, knee jerk stuff. S Korea just as bad.
As for comfort women, this paragraph is misleading - should read "now-elderly"
Seoul is also irked at Tokyo’s refusal to compensate elderly Korean women forced into sexual slavery for Japanese troops during World War II.
danalawton1@yahoo.com at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
Trade between Japan and S. Korea is only done out of necessity and that is it. Look at cars in both markets. Try to find a Korean car in Japan or a Japanese care in S. Korea.... why do you think that is? If S. Korean's do buy Japanese products it is only because they cannot make a similar product. Currently you're starting to see Samsung products being sold in Japan... this is a major victory for S. Korea. Samsung's products have been seen on shelves in the rest of the world for years but Japan managed to keep them out. But now Samsung's price, quality and technology just cannot be overlooked. You definitely know a S. Korean product is good when it is sold right next to NEC in Japan at a lower price.
that korean guy at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
@wakarimasen - i disagree. Seoul, especially president Lee is secretly rejoicing that Japan is taking the reaction that it is taking. With the ruling party in the bribery scandal that's still developing, Lee needs something that can divert public attention from himself and the ruling party. it's almost like he's got TWO free get-out-of-jail cards - one from japan and the other from north korea. in any case, it's a political move from the korean side and the response it garners from japan seems to be of the same nature.
spudman at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
Let the winner of the men's soccer game get the stupid piece of rock. Sad that neighbours hate each other so passionately. Japan has never really faced up to it's aggressive annexation of Korea nearly a century ago. Korea will never forgive unless there is a reconciliation from both sides. Time for the muppet heads of states to act like men.
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
A bunch of school children.
ReformedBasher at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:17PM JST
How very immature of them. And it's the president, no less. Brilliant strategy in improving relations! Bravo!
Hmm, it's the South Koreans, not the North Koreans, who are the good guys, right?
Seriously, all right-wing nutjobs from around the world should all be dumped on an island like these and let the homo sapiens live in peace...
I'd actually like Japan to declare these (literally) rocks Korean and move on too. They're not worth the constant stupidity on both sides.
DoLittleBeLate at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:18PM JST
"All right, children! KNOCK IT OFF! The yard is for everybody to play, let's not start fighting over such small things! Don't make me call your parents! They will ground you for the rest of the day and then you won't be able to play outside anymore. AND they'll take away your playstations!!!"
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:51PM JST
They are South Korean islands, so what's the big deal?
Dog at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:52PM JST
danalawton1@yahoo.comAug. 10, 2012 - 12:08PM JST
Korea runs a trade deficit of 10 billion dollars with Japan, nearly all of it is high tech parts. The more products Samsung produces, the bigger deficit Korea will have with japan because 25% of the high tech gadgets in the Samsung products are Japanese made or Japanese patented.
Victory for Japan, wouldn't you say?
BurakuminDes at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:52PM JST
These East Asian mob are so aggressive toward each other - they remind me of Europeans! So similar culturally, yet constantly wanting to puff out their chests over trivial issues. They need to sit down and smoke a peace pipe (or something...)
Dog at Aug. 10, 2012 - 12:59PM JST
Why parallel universe does this guy live in?
What firm action is Japan going to take?
Cletus at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:01PM JST
Dog
They will stomp their feet and call these actions regrettable. That scares everyone when they do that...
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:14PM JST
These islands are critical to Japan's energy future as the territory 200 miles out from them will become sovereign 'land' of whoever owns the islands.
Pretty amazing how many people don't get this.
This issue is entirely about access to resources.
Cricky at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:16PM JST
It's upsetting for Japan to see Korea prosperous, Gold Medals, vibrant economy, international recognition as a market leader, respected as an Asian Tiger. It's upsetting for Japanese Politcians, their fathers taught them that these people were sub human. Their woman loose and for a pittance you could have two. Being out played and out productive, what is there to fall back on but zenephobic retoric that results in a destructive cycle of hate.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:16PM JST
Reformed Basher - "'I7d actually like Japan to declare these (literally) rocks Korean and move on too."
For the reason I stated above, this would be an incredibly stupid thing for JGov to do.
SmithinJapan - "They are South Korean islands, so what's the big deal?"
Access to resources that ownership of these - and other claimed islands - entail.
A Canadian at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:17PM JST
Let's send Noda over there, now that he's survived the no confidence vote, and he and Lee can decide once and for all via rock, paper scissors like children do in the school yard.
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:22PM JST
And you're acting as if Japan is the only country that matters.
A Canadian at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:23PM JST
SushiSake3 is right, this is all about natural resources, and it's an important topic, which is why they need to stop acting like children, grow up and sit down to discuss it as adults. Why can't there be joint ownership of the land and resources?
codomo at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:24PM JST
i know that japan will only send a message of "strongly regret" after that guy arrived on the rocks. nothing will happen and people just forget this after several days passed.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:25PM JST
Cricky - "Being out played and out productive, what is there to fall back on but zenephobic retoric that results in a destructive cycle of hate."
"cycle of hate"? Are you serious?
It's primarily about resources.
Tokiyo at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:25PM JST
The same reason why we can have good politicians, anywhere?
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:26PM JST
A Canadian - "Why can't there be joint ownership of the land and resources?"
Excellent idea. I've often wondered that myself.
Ditto with the Chinese and access to undersea gas resources.
DoLittleBeLate at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:35PM JST
It would be amazing if people would "get" it, because that's pure nonsense. Japan will seize to exist if they lose a couple of rocks in the middle of nowhere? Really? In that case, not a very strong country. Maybe Japan's influence in the world stage is very small because people "get" things like that.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:38PM JST
DolittleBeLate - " In that case, not a very strong country."
You're right, it's not. Japan imports virtually all it's energy that it doesn't generate from NPP.
And with access to dwindling resources and rare earths becoming tighter and countries like China imposing export bans, energy security is becoming a greater isse virtually everywhere.
Which is why Japan needs to expand its resource base as much as possible, and why these islands are important.
Ronald F Stark at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:45PM JST
Please retaliate by banning all South Korean pop music! The Japanese stuff is bad enough!
marcelito at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:52PM JST
Send in admiral Ishihara... Btw, there is no reason why the visit is going ahead now- my ass. Diverting political heat from the president over his family corruption charges is behind the timing.
Dog at Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:53PM JST
SushiSake3Aug. 10, 2012 - 01:14PM JST
If japan had her way, the whole Pacific would be aknowledged by the rest of the world as being critical to Japan's energy future.
Japan is greedy.
Cricky at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:05PM JST
SUHISAKI3
It might be about resources, but there is a Historical pedegry that influences this particular ta ta te, one upmanship and loss of face are defiantly on the board. It's 2012 and colonialism for these countries are the sticking problem. One wants an actknowedgement, the other a denial. An over view of the historical differences is impossible. Japan re-writes history and claims innocence, on their version (total denial) of facts. Korea take umbradge at this, thus the cycle.
ExportExpert at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:16PM JST
danalawton1@yahoo.com
Completely incorrect, korean products are sold next to japanese products because the won is so cheap nothing to do with being good.
Wakarimasen at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:24PM JST
We all know it is about resources. Almost all territorial disputes are, especially in this case where there is almost no population. Point is the ridiculous posturing by both governments. Sure, it is not unique to Asia (look at the Falklands dispute), but nevertheless still worthy of comment as being silly. especially as the two countries have so many other common interests and goals.
DoLittleBeLate at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:38PM JST
And international trade is bad because...? Right, the "right to wage war and hate, and not accept the consequences of being an unsocial %&$#".
Do not count your enemies. Count your friends instead. That is more informative.
CrazyJoe at Aug. 10, 2012 - 02:47PM JST
Japan does not want Takeshima (Dokdo), they just don't want to lose it.
billyshears at Aug. 10, 2012 - 03:04PM JST
All these territorial disputes Japan has (plus all the territorial disputes China has with nearly every other country in the region) are impossible to resolve outside of agreements to share resources or war. As both seem highly unlikely, and all of the countries involved will never willingly step down from their positions, these kind of annoying spats will continue into the foreseeable future. Outsiders trying to appropriate blame on one particular country is an exercise in futility. I think for non-Japanese living in Japan it creates yet another feeling of unease to go along with concerns about the regular procession of natural disasters, nuclear fall-out in the air and food, other environmental problems, a lack of natural resources, an aging society, a swiftly declining economy and a political ineptitude to deal with many of these problems quickly and effectively.
Green Panda at Aug. 10, 2012 - 03:46PM JST
Japan is a peaceful country now. What can they do besides bend over and let South Korea take them?
Stoneofsilence at Aug. 10, 2012 - 04:43PM JST
I know that South Korea has many legitimate grievances against Japan and these are accepted by a fair number of Japanese who are ashamed of their colonial past - and certainly with respect to the "comfort" women issue, this could have been resolved many years ago - and Japan should have shown goodwill to the Korean people. With respect to territorial disputes in the region, and a visit to wikipedia will confirm that there are numerous disputes over territory - mostly islands, I feel that rather than having protracted disputes that fester and might be flash points in the future, all the disputants should simply share (equally) the territory - without any military involvement - there should be a civil presence only and that if there are any minerals or resources in the area - the first issue should be sustainability regarding the immediate environment, secondly if they can be obtained without compromising the ecology - then it should be a case of pragmaticism - irrespective of the strength of the claim - the fact that in international law any party has a legitimate claim should be respected - and here in the interest of region stability every country should have a share and cooperate equally. In the case of China which has many claims, this would undoubtedly work in their favour, since she could 1. save on military expenditure 2. improve ties with her neighbours 3. benefit economically. A pragmatic and peaceful, cooperative approach to territorial disputes should be adopted. This from my perspective is how sovereignty issues should be resolved in the future. The alternative is frightening, since all disputants in the region have a strong military and civil mariime presence (fishing, cargo, tankers) which means there is a very real danger of conflict. I have read that in China they are talking of a naval conflict between Cihina and Japan in 2014. This is of course fed by animosity against Japan - which is iagain n part legitimate - but today when countries should live by the rule of law, and China is moving towards a new future, its leaders should show that with its new prosperity and power that it can be as wise as Confucious and Buddha (especially the latter) and seek a path that brings harmony rather than destruction. Japan for its part, should learn to respect the new geographical configuration and show that it too can lead the way on a similar path. Every country in the region should be proud of its heritage - but why not be prouder still and reach out across the differences and resolve all the territorial disputes through sharing and caring.
SushiSake3 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 04:52PM JST
Stoneofsilence - beautifully put and I agree wholeheatedly, however the problem - as usual - is that our elected leaders are prideful men.
And as another poster stated, want to save face.
Backing down in this case really is not an option.
Sharing is probably the best of the worst options.
tian4670 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 04:53PM JST
What about Kuril, and Senkaku?
If Japan can't invent anything innovative on these, it will be very busy protesting, denying etc. It will have zero time for more productive businesses. Things (even outside territory dispute) will get worse when everyone think they cannot get any worse.
umbrella at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:10PM JST
The South Korean leader visits South Korean territory. Wow, big news!!
Bob Sneider at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:13PM JST
In all its territorial disputes, Japan doesn't have a legitimate claim in a single one. Japan can't seem to let go of its expansionist policies from its imperialist days.
Pukey2 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:20PM JST
Hypocrisy at its finest.
voiceofokinawa at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:21PM JST
Maybe, Tokyo is looking forward to the U.S.F.J. coming to their aid for this diehard territorial dispute with South Korea because of the Japan-U.S. Security Treaty, just as it is doing so for the Senkaku issue. But would the U.S. come to Japan's aid if conflicts really flared up? I doubt it.
Territorial issues must be solved bilaterally between the countries concerned. That, I think, is the U.S.'s covert stance toward these issues. If so, why does the U.S. keep saying hypocritically that this excessive military presence in Okinawa and the deployment of the Osprey to Futenma is for defense of Japan and scaring off of an enemy invasion?
Takeshima is already controled by South Korea and so is the so-called Northern Territory by Russia. I want to hear what U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Cliknton would say about these issues.
NeverSubmit at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:36PM JST
And a day before the soccer game. Beautiful timing.
If South Korea wins it'll be a real kick in the gut, but on the other hand, the Japanese team has a real chance to avenge this if they win.
voiceofokinawa at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:38PM JST
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has already said the Senkaku Islands fall within a category covered by the Japan-U.S. Security Treaty. So what she must explain is why Takeshima and the Northern Territory do or do not.
Serrano at Aug. 10, 2012 - 05:43PM JST
Gemba: "I don't know when he ( Lee ) will go back to South Korea"
As far as Lee and the rest of the Koreans are concerned, he never left South Korea.
Farmboy at Aug. 10, 2012 - 06:07PM JST
Here is a nice article with lots of good pictures of the place. It says the dispute started in the 15th century, so I guess it will go on a bit longer. I personally think the Japanese case is stronger with the Senkakus. This one seems a bit iffy, but I haven't explored it in depth. There is some decent evidence on both sides.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/02/dokdo_or_takeshima.html
Farmboy at Aug. 10, 2012 - 06:23PM JST
And a little about the issue legally here;
http://www.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal51/japan2.pdf
Denon at Aug. 10, 2012 - 06:41PM JST
These islands belong to South Korea in the same way that the Senkakus belong to Japan. The Japanese government is one of the premier two-faced organizations on this planet, and it is horribly disgusting. Not to be so was definitely one of the lessons they should have learned during WWII, but didnt.
Still, there is no reason for the South Korean President to visit the Liancourt Rocks except to make a show for the home crowd of pissing off Japan, and it thoroughly immature and contemptible.
Also, conducting military exercises there, in Japan's face is in the same boat. Yeah, its their territory, but still, having the exercises in a neighbor's face is unnecessarily provocative. Its childish even.
Farmboy at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:04PM JST
Yes, very much the same way because both issues require real depth of study, but everyone is just too comfortable having opinions without doing any work. If it were that easy, with no valid points on one side or the other, it would have been settled long ago. The issue is fairly complex, even without all the strong feelings people have.
Hikozaemon at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:09PM JST
You can always tell when a Korean leader is on the way out or losing popularity by the way they hoist up the nationalist pinata claims against Japan.
This visit is just a move of desperation by Lee to try to recover some popularity following scandals around his family and a nosedive in popularity ahead of a presidential election he is about to get creamed in.
It's a shame - I always liked Japan born president Lee - he was a big improvement from Roh, and generally constructive about relations with Japan.
Last desperate move of an unpopular leader on the way out who has completely lost his sense of self respect trying to get nationalist votes.
A sad and silly end to what I think has been an otherwise pretty good term for Japan-Korea relations.
Peace
Hikozaemon at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:11PM JST
Actually, I wonder when it was since a Korean president last visited Shimane Prefecture? They should send him a fruit basket or something.
NeverSubmit at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:44PM JST
As for the US-Japan mutual defense treaty it only applies to territory currently under Japanese administration.
Hence, the Kuril islands and Takeshima islands aren't covered.
Skeeter27 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 08:49PM JST
They are tiny little outcropping of worthless rocks! Ok maybe there is some natural reserves under the sea beds. But maybe Santa Clause will deliver Christmas presents early too!!
Disputed territories?? OK Noda if this is Japan then YOU GO THERE!!! See how China or South Korea react! Same goes for the 4 islands off the NE part of Hokaido! If you really feel these are Japanese why don't you ply your butts up there!?!?!
Ahhhh that is right, IF you really thought it was Japanese you would go there!!! Now I might be wrong but to my knowledge you nor not a single government official has been to any of these places!!
Lastly, Japan needs to take care of people at home living in shelters still, this malarky is stupid waste of time and money!
Sorry I now I said, "lastly", but lets say for sake of argument that China can somehow show the islands are in fact Chinese then it is kinda funny that Tokyo own land from the family they might be able to buy from the Kurasawa family. If this is in fact the case then it would be like a Chinese man buying land in Niigata the land is his, yes, but it does not make the land Chinese
oldsanno at Aug. 10, 2012 - 09:53PM JST
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Confidential_Security_Information_about_Liancourt_Rocks
YuriOtani at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:22PM JST
Guess President Lee needs political support back home. Suppose now the Japanese roosters will start to crow. This is so predictable it becomes a bore. Japan drop all claims to the Liancourt Rocks and concentrate on fights we can win. Like clean renewable energy in Japan. How about rebuilding from the tsunami? or how about improving the lives of the retired people? So much to do and we worry about rocks.
presto345 at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:30PM JST
Perhaps Japan does not have any legal rights to the islands. But the climate Lee is trying to create IS disgusting and add to that all above adjectives. Not something you expect from a real politician, diplomat and leader.
I continue to be amazed at the animosity that still exists in the axis of the Asian nations, the territorial disputes. China being a major player trying to perhaps gain hegemony in the region, Korea and Japan, the Philippines and others not wanting to be outdone. Me thinking, 'yeah, this is Asia, not Europe where things are done a bit differently'. Or am I missing something?
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:35PM JST
“I told him I have no understanding of why President Lee visited the islands at this time,”
That's because you have little to no idea of politics, Gemba, and should never have been selected for the position you're in. gee... I wonder why he might have visited? Let's see... denial of atrocities and sexual slavery in Korea and China, stepped up rhetoric from Japan about the islands and the desire to 'buy' and put people and defense forces on some, radicals talking about having nuclear weapons on Japanese soil, the constant bombast from politicians here on any island issue, Japan sending its coast guard wherever it pleases around the world and claiming its justified as defense, the constant white-washing in textbooks and overall denial of history... and the list goes on.
Gemba, he is visiting South Korean soil... he never entered Japan. You need to get that through you're thick skull.
As for needing political points, perhaps that's in part why Lee did it, but any Japanese (or apologist) on here pointing that out need only point in his/her backyard to see the politicians here doing exactly the same thing. When did Japan's recent island rhetoric get kicked up a notch? when the DPJ fell to its lowest ratings, and when issues were focused on mishandling of last year's crises, including the ongoing crisis at the Fukushima plant.
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:55PM JST
oldsanno: "It appears that the Department has taken the position that these rocks belong to Japan and has so informed the Korean >Ambassador in Washington."
Wow... how old is that? and a quotation from Wikipedia nonetheless! The US a few years back went back on recognition of the islands being administered by Japan and rightfully pointed out they are lived on and administered by South Korea -- one of the reasons Japan claims the Senkakus belong to them, minus the living on part, by the way -- and it infuriated Japanese right-wingers and the government.
Dokdo is South Korean territory, and Japan has no rightful claim to it. For the same reasons why over time the islands will be cemented as South Korean territory once and for all (ie. again, living on, administering, protecting) Japan has the better claim to the Senkakus... unless they keep pushing China, of course.
YuriOtani at Aug. 10, 2012 - 10:56PM JST
smithinjapan, not everyone in Japan denies what happened in the PAST. My parents were children when this happened and even they are now very old. There is no link to anyone in Japans current government and anyone responsible is either deceased or very very old. The "white-washed" textbooks are not used in every school and most kids really do not care. They are like children in most countries that worry more about now than before their parents were born.
About the radicals, well there are nuts in every country and so sorry we have free speech in Japan, well at least most of the time. When these people start crowing it lets people know where they stand on the issues. About the Presidents visit, it was done for political reasons. He rang the bell and Japans politicians started salivating on command. He has now taken a "tough" stand against Japan and deserves to be reelected.
oldsanno at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:12PM JST
sij
No, the source is not Wikipedia.
WebsterHuron at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:12PM JST
Yet more evidence of Japan's diminished global standing and influence. The Chinese, Russians, and Koreans continuously disrespect Japanese territorial claims, and what are the Japanese going to do about it? That's right. Absolutely nothing. Kind of hard to have a consistent, unified foreign policy when you've had 9 foreign ministers in 5 years.
The forefathers of modern Japan must be rolling in their graves right now.
shanabelle at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:23PM JST
Lee's final 'look at me' moment on his way out.... I think that's why the Japan Gov are trying to ignore it as much as possible... this issue needs to be settled sometime though, the Senkaku islands too.
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:35PM JST
YuriOtani: "They are like children in most countries that worry more about now than before their parents were born."
There is absolutely nothing wrong with worrying about the present, granted -- in fact it would be wrong NOT to -- but doing it with no history as to WHY you might worry presents nothing but problems. And yes, all of the history texts in schools are white-washed. Japan has a standard curriculum, with the texts approved by nationalists with themselves little to no denial of the past, or at least in complete denial.
shanabelle: "Lee's final 'look at me' moment on his way out...."
Quick question: even if Lee were to go out tomorrow, which I doubt, how many Japanese PMs did he 'outlive'? (zing!).
"I think that's why the Japan Gov are trying to ignore it as much as possible..."
They're 'ignoring it' by summoning in ambassadors and recalling envoys? Those are the most extreme measures they can take at present, as well as making media releases saying, "... I can't understand why this happened...". You've got to be kidding!
"...this issue needs to be settled sometime though, the Senkaku islands too."
We agree there, at least. The sooner Japan acknowledges the islands as South Korea, the better. Why should SK contest its own land?
It"S ME at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:40PM JST
Smithinjapan.
Got to disagree they did a study in germany and most teens don't know about the Berlin wall or what it meant. Now that is scary as the wall came down in 1989.
Want to know them about older events it is just figures and dates for them as they didn't live them.
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:42PM JST
oldsanno: "Excerpted from Confidential Security Information about Liancourt Rocks on Wikipedia"
So the source is not Wikipedia... your source is just... wait... Wikipedia? And how old is that document again? Regardless, it has nothing to do with the US; it's a dispute between Japan and Korea over islands that Korea lives on and administers. Holding up a aged sheet of paper from a government that has nothing to do with it really doesn't mean anything. It'd be like me going to islands in the Philippines and saying, "Look, Japan signed this paper saying this is mine, n'kay?"
smithinjapan at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:44PM JST
Re. my earlier post: "...with themselves little to no denial of the past, or at least in complete denial."
Sorry, was thinking ahead. That should read, "...with themselves little to no KNOWLEDGE of the past, or at least in complete denial." My bad.
It"S ME at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:53PM JST
Not so much denial but part of history lessons. Try European history for over 2 millennia.
Myself studied classic, medieval and 20th century history(separate class). Granted we didn't cover vietnam, etc back than,
YuriOtani at Aug. 10, 2012 - 11:59PM JST
smithinjapan, which textbooks are you referring? Please provide names, authors and publishing houses. Am taking some college courses here in America. The "children" are woefully ignorant even about modern events. The invasion of Iraq is ancient news and the Berlin what? My English is not the best but I do not write in text!
Most people in Japan will probably ignore this news. It is not out of being "nationalist" but having better things to do and think about. Oh when have I written these rocks belong to Japan?
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:23AM JST
This is rich. A China supporter worried about Japanese "extremists"? China has 17 disputes with her neighbotrs, Japan has 4. China is the only one thae uses it;s muscle to bully it's neighbors and is regarded as a threat by all of Asia.
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:29AM JST
The way I remember this, the Liancourt Rocks were considered Japanese. After WWII the US used it as a live weapons training ground. There was an unfortunate incident where South Korean fishermen disregarded the no-entry warning and died as a result of U.S. bombing training. In contradiction to the U.S. position, Syngman Rhee unilaterally re-drew South Koreas borders and claimed these rocks. This naturally rsulted in a dispute and South Korea unilaterally put coast guard on the islands and "occupied" them. Japan has twice attempted to resolve the issue by bringing to the OCJ for settlement but both times South Korea has refused. So the situation remains unchanged both sides claiming the rocks as theirs. Did I leave anything out?
GW at Aug. 11, 2012 - 01:14AM JST
Bottom line is this, Japan is in serious decline, SO its neighbours are MUCH less inclined to pay Tokyo much heed Japan is going to have to get used to it because Japan is now going from weakness to more & more weakness.
Its a bitter pill to swallow but Japan wont have much choice the way things are going, shoganai ne!
Denon at Aug. 11, 2012 - 01:17AM JST
If you are accusing me of not going back to the 15th century like you, I am guilty as charged. But that would make about as much sense as giving France back to the Gauls. The Gauls are all gone you say? Well, so are the Koreans of 600 years ago!
The simple fact is that South Korea has held them for decades militarily. And since all treaties on uninhabited land claims have absolutely no teeth, the law of the jungle applies. I wish it were not so, but it is so. But even if I didnt, still, what people did 600 years ago is really of no interest to me in such matters. Its the living that counts.
And before anyone brings up the two guys living there, that is a sham for show, and we all know it. If one single man had been born and raised there and wanted to live there, I would support his country's claim to Liancourt Rocks, even if his citizenship was Panamanian!
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 02:30AM JST
This is a very good issue to convince the world, America has no intention to solve any territorial disputes but stealing profits from the conflicted parties, you wont see US interferences in Liancourt rocks, because there doesnt discover any oil! But she has provoked troubles in south China sea especially the Sparatly islands siding with the philipines and vietnam! The American and other western oil companies has connections with those countries and they were sure gaining a larger chunk of oil profits if the US military involvment over those disputes!
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 02:32AM JST
I am not very interesting with the Liancourt rocks dispute between the ROK and Japan but I think their military intelligence cooperations will be posponted indefinately! Well done President Lee!
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 03:54AM JST
Seems like there is a rotation of 'pissing' from' all the neighbours of Japan, Russian PM set foot on Kurile, the south Korean president set foot on Dokdo and Chinese vessels storming the Senkaku island! Why Japan couldnt gain respect from all these countries?
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 04:33AM JST
just-a-bigguy no it is just politics as usual. The President of the Republic of Korea will see his poll numbers jump. Though what do you expect in a country where more people hate Japan than the enemy to the north?
issa1 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 04:39AM JST
My blood boils of anger to know that most Japanese have not given due attention to issues of the islands that are occupied improperly,unfortunately that will it be forgotten short time
I feel that my ancestors who gave their lives to defend this country are rolling in their graves right now!
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:31AM JST
vg866 I am not at all "pro Korean" just think this is not a fight worth fighting. If President Lee thinks he can give the middle finger to Japan and get away with it? He must know Japan can extend the middle finger as well. Like oh working with the Peoples Republic of Korea, first with food then with low level relations then who knows. What you write confirms the poll. Why should Japan play nice with South Korea?
sfjp330 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:37AM JST
YuriOtani Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:31AM JST If President Lee thinks he can give the middle finger to Japan and get away with it?
What a short memory. President Lee has always favored improving economic ties with Japan rather than dwelling on unresolved issues of the past. But Lee was pushed by Japanese politicians to take this hard line position. This kind of political decision can improve his approval rating In South Korea. I doubt relations between Japan and South Korea are harmed by Lee’s visit to the islands, the blame should ultimately fall on Japan.
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:03PM JST
sfip330, no this is harming relations. No if relations are harmed it is his fault. If it was not this issue, it would be something else.
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:06PM JST
That depends on who the islands really belong to.
Denon at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:33PM JST
vg866, you typical rightist/conservative does not give a damn about right and wrong. For them its about winning and gaining. For them, lying, killing, cheating and stealing are just part of the game, and when they get control you get wars like WWII, the end of which is at the crux of this issue. Sadly too many of them still have control, and whereas the Japanese government should gladly give over these rocks as penance for Japanese brutality in Korea, the rightists/conservatives did not learn a thing from the war.
Jmk149 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 12:34PM JST
Lee buying bak is the worst political president, ever. period. I voted for him almost 5 years ago, only to support his economic decisions. Not only he was poor at the economic situations he is worse at making political behavior such as this. Dokdo has been politically boiling island for both of countries and his decision to go there as a president is as bad as it can be. Why not go to a Fiji island instead?
Farmboy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 02:20PM JST
It really makes no difference to me whether you go back to the 15th century or not, and I'm not motivated to accuse you of not going anywhere. These lumps in the sea don't belong to me, so Korean lumps or Japanese lumps, either way is okay, from my point of view. I do, however, see it as an interesting issue, and I think to understand the issue, one has to examine its history, international law, and all claims on both sides. To decide the issue, this will have to be done, and I hope both sides will get together and make some fair agreement.
However, more often than not, people who have a bone to pick about Koreans or Japanese use issues like this as a vehicle to express their unpleasant feelings....no analysis, just bad feelings. You use words like, "horribly disgusting" describing the Japanese, and "immature and contemptible" regarding the Koreans, so I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that you might be in this category.
just-a-bigguy at Aug. 11, 2012 - 04:45PM JST
Being the president of RoK is like sitting on a hot seat! There is a strong pro-North Korean mania in the south! If President Lee bending too much to US/Japan alliances will be blashed potrayed being a 'puppet'! Thats why he needs to stand firm to let go those domestic pressure sometimes by irking Japan to show his fellow countrymen that he does has a spine! For President Lee besides Japan there doesnt exist a country good to 'piss off', US,China, Russia were all big brothers if made anyone of them angry is definately unwise! Pissoff japan.....so what? South Korea has always recalls her ambassdor in Tokyo and what so if Tokyo recalls their own, maybe those leftists,rightists,extremeists in South Korea might applaud him at the same moment.
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 09:22PM JST
1954, 1962...and now Japan will take challenge South Korea to settle this issue for good at the ICJ. And South Korea will refuse again. Refusing, especially repeatedly refusing,raises doubts as to just how confident South Korea really is in it;s claim of ownership if it were argued in a neutral court of law. South Korean should consider how the world sees them, do they want't to become a respectedglobal power? Or a country that appears petty and small?
Serrano at Aug. 11, 2012 - 09:34PM JST
Are they still arguing about those rocks? Jeez...
OssanAmerica at Aug. 11, 2012 - 11:53PM JST
Misinfoprmed? LOL Did Skorea refuse to go to the ICJ in 1954? YES Did SKorea refuse to go to the ICJ in 1962? YES Your LAME EXCUSES are why South Korea is the laughing stock of the world.
YuriOtani at Aug. 11, 2012 - 11:53PM JST
Again, Japan should drop claims on the Liancourt Rocks. Every dog has its day and it will be seen if good relations are possible.
OssanAmerica at Aug. 12, 2012 - 02:02AM JST
So you are saying the Republic of Korea ceased to exist in 1961? What did it become? You are confusing a change in adminstration with a change in regime. And again. that's a lame excuse. What was the excuse in 1954? That the Korean War had just ended? Well that didn';t stop them from declaring the island as their own dosregarding not only Japan's but the U.S,. position as well.
That's really very funny comming from a Korea supporter. It;s South Korea that has refused to go before the ICJ TWICE. Japan has tried to do so twice. It doesn't take a genius to figure out which side knows who is afraid of losing.Your own argument fails logically because if Japan knew they would lose they would never have tried in the first place. .
OssanAmerica at Aug. 12, 2012 - 02:03AM JST
Then why does South Korea keep refusing? Your own arguments support South Korea agreeing to go before the ICJ, don't you see that?
So since you cannot refute that South Korea is afraid of going before the ICJ, you now resort to name calling Very mature. By advocating that the matter be settled before a neautral forum, that makes me a "right-winger"?
I honedstly expect the ICJ to side with whichever country has the valid argument and can support it. Cleartly South Korea can't, so they grabbed the island physically by force. Well let's see what happemns now when Japan does make another effort to settle this issue at thye ICJ. Will South Korea display maturity and civility by agreeing to go before the ICJ? Or will hey refuse again? If so, what lame excuse are they going to come up with now?
PT24881 at Aug. 12, 2012 - 02:18AM JST
The Korean president has chosen a bad option to boost his poll scores, the FM Gemba reacted with the worst option by recalling the J ambassador in Seoul -- easy to overreact but what is more complicated will be next step if has a game plan ? You cannot fight on all fronts, actions & degree of pressure needed to be prioritized as per a pertinent dosage.
You are trapped I am afraid Mr. Gemba !
Of course, the most embarrassed party is the American big brother -- it was almost ok since a few months to have both participated in joint exercise.. Almost...helas !
OssanAmerica at Aug. 12, 2012 - 11:20AM JST
Your excuses for why South Korea refused Japan's suggestion to settle at the ICJ in 1962 are lame excuses. Please don't insult the world's collective intelligence with your absurd explanations. And you haven't even attempted to explain 1954.
edhan at Aug. 12, 2012 - 01:13PM JST
Dokdo is a Korean territory. The following are some excerpts from various researches from elite universities includding Standford.
With the beginning of the Meiji Restoration in 1868, the Japanese government began compiling land registers and bthe Meiji government made it clear in 1877 that Ulleung Island and Dokdo were Korean territory, saying they had nothing to do with Japan.
Hosaka, a Japanese-born academic, says he bought the book from a dealer who specializes in old Japanese maps. He has also found other complete maps of Japan that do not include Dokdo.
Japan’s claims of sovereignty on Dokdo are closely related to its attempt to justify its early imperialist expansion in 1905. Thus, Japan’s claiming of Dokdo was a part of its imperial-colonial expansionism design which made Korea the first victim of Japan. In the furtherance of this attitude, the Japanese extreme rightists glamorize the past imperialist appetite and colonial occupation, invasion, and bringing aggressive war and various war crimes.
Along with the Yasukuni Shrine issue and the controversy over Japan’s distortion of historical facts in middle and high school student textbooks, this sovereignty controversy about Dokdo, backed by national sentiment, has been functioning as one of the most serious barriers to better relations between Korea and Japan.
There are historical evidences that Korean title to Dokdo dates back to the Sixth century.
Yuji Hosaka, Japanese professor, states that another couple of historic Japanese maps have been discovered that do not include Korea’s Dokdo islets as part of Japanese territory.
Measuring 115 cm by 123 cm, one map was produced by the Japanese Army in 1877 and depicts the country’s sovereign territory in detail, but does not contain Dokdo. In 1889, Japanese surveyors created the country’s first-ever map on a 200,000:1 scale compiled from all of the maps that had been produced until that time, but even that makes no reference to Dokdo, Hosaka said.
Japan should stop making distorted and false claims on many historical events and data.
How would you feel if Korea started to claim that Honshu is a Korean island and start publishing textbooks and make stories as it is true.
edhan at Aug. 12, 2012 - 01:24PM JST
ICJ is heavily lobbied by Japan and believe one of the court member is Japanese. So, why should Korean take this case to ICJ? But, mostly, it is a ridiculous for someone to claim that is not his and start falsifying documents and the history. It tells a lot about his integrity and character.
ChessGM at Aug. 12, 2012 - 01:30PM JST
**@edhan: **
It is Stanford, not Standford. Moreover, the Stanford documents, posted by Farmboy, show that legal experts side with Japan's claims of ownership over the Dokdo.
fivegogo2003@yahoo.com at Aug. 12, 2012 - 03:17PM JST
Can it be, South Korea is in denial, shouldn't they pay a closer attention to healing their country by reuniting with their Northern brother rather then these islands?
Hide Suzuki at Aug. 12, 2012 - 03:35PM JST
@vg866
"this is why Koreans laugh at Japan"
No, Koreans are too worked up to laugh at anything related to Japan, just like you LOL. Relax dude, you are about to have a heart attack. take it easy and enjoy life if at all possible LOL
Hikozaemon at Aug. 12, 2012 - 09:50PM JST
I think this is great - at least it will delay that $500 billion transfer to help bolster the ROK economy for no purpose I can currently fathom, given Japan's own economic problems. I think Lee's visit was timed great. Keep my tax money here at least!
OssanAmerica at Aug. 14, 2012 - 12:39AM JST
Yes lame. Why then did the South Korean government agree to settle to issue at the ICJ in 1965?????
This may come as news to you but people who know they will lose don;t start a court case.Too much sense? And Japan has alreadystated they are going to take South Korea to the ICJ andSouth Korea has already very predicatably refused. Gee, which one is the "chicken"?
Excellent arguments fopr South Korea to agree to settling at the ICJ!!! Yet South Koreas refuses. Cowardice? They have no evidece? No confidence?
OssanAmerica at Aug. 14, 2012 - 12:40AM JST
More excellemt reapons for South Korea to settle at the ICJ!!
nigelboy at Aug. 14, 2012 - 01:02AM JST
Non existent? The request in 1962 came from Minister of Foreign Affairs Ohira to Kim Jon Pil who was a head of Korean Central Intelligence Agency under Park Chung Hee.