" I hate to think that because of this incident, because of my actions, it’s polarized and divided America, and I’m truly sorry."
You're sorry for yourself dude because your ass is in a sling and you're going to jail with a "born to lose" tattoo because of your actions. You mention the Martin family only after 4 other groups you apologize to.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:21PM JST
I hate to think that because of this incident, because of my actions, it’s polarized and divided America
Never mind a person being dead because of your actions.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:23PM JST
“I do wish there was something, anything I could have done
Just off the top of my head, how about listening to the police dispatcher that told you to stand down? That probably would have prevented you taking his life.
summer of recovery at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:32PM JST
I fail to see why this story is newsworthy now or when the shooting first happened. In light of the huge nember of fatalities in America it is a tiny fleeting blip. There are literally a dozen young Trayvon Martin cases each weekend in the city of Chicago alone. But the current regime in the nation's capital does need show trials to retain its street cred...
Madverts at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:37PM JST
" There are literally a dozen young Trayvon Martin cases each weekend in the city of Chicago alone"
A dozen unarmed teenagers shot by wannabe cops that are suspicious of black people in their community? This is news from Chicago.
Madverts at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:39PM JST
" But the current regime in the nation's capital does need show trials to retain its street cred..."
This is quite a new angle from you on this case. Are you giving up your past attempts at falsely painting Martin as a drug-dealing thug who basically got what he deserved?
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:51PM JST
To the thumbs downers, why do you think the person had the right to act like a police officer? Don't you think that should be the job of actual police officers? Don't you think if Zimmerman had waited for the police, since Martin was not actually doing anything illegal and all, that no one would have died in this case? After all, Martin did not have a gun. Martin was not committing any crimes. What exactly is reasonable about everyday people acting like police officers? Could you explain it ito me?
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:56PM JST
Saying sorry can go a long way in terms of mollifying, to an extent, the feelings of those who have lost a loved one as a result of the suspect's actions, and since said family knows they cannot get him or her back, but it's not enough when followed with "I'm not a murderer".
I don't know if the man is truly racist or not, but he definitely murdered the kid, regardless of whether some ridiculous law chooses semantics to say he did not.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:00PM JST
regardless of whether some ridiculous law chooses semantics to say he did not.
Actually, that is an interesting point. It seems that the law, or the authorities there, have decided he did murder Martin as evidenced by him being charged.
Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder over the Feb 26 incident. Prosecutors accuse him of racial profiling and say he refused police requests to not follow Martin, who was unarmed and had no criminal record.
Laguna at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:20PM JST
Hannity asked Zimmerman, "Is there anything that you regret? Do you regret getting out of the car to follow Trayon that night? Do you regret that you had a gun that night?"
Zimmerman responded, "No, sir. I feel that it was all God's plan and not for me to second-guess it or judge it."
His god certainly works in mysterious ways. Smart statement to make, though - those gun nuts that are funding his celebrity lawyer also tend to be religious zealots.
freakashow at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:28PM JST
Terrible incident. Seems to me the police are siding a bit with ZImmerman because they know they failed to do their job and respond to calls of break-ins in the area. I feel that if they did their job, we'd have one less trigger-happy man trying to off a suspect, and one less dead person. Putting the law in a civilian's hands just makes it more dangerous that something like this could happen. Was Zimmerman's life in real danger? Or was he just fed up to the point where he was just looking for anyone who fit in his racial profiling? We may never know, but I hope we do find out.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:38PM JST
The case provoked widespread outrage after Zimmerman, who is Hispanic,
I see the term "white hispanic" has now been dropped in the reporting on him.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:48PM JST
Prosecutors accuse him of racial profiling
Apparently they haven't been in contact with the FBI recently.
After interviewing 30 people familiar with George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain charged with killing African-American teenager Trayvon Martin, FBI agents found no evidence that the shooting was driven by racial bias or animus.
What do you think is the legal basis for what Zimmerman did? Do you think it was correct for him to not follow the directions of the police dispatcher? What if it were your own child that was killed in this way, for nothing. How would you feel?
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:59PM JST
I see the term "white hispanic"
Is hispanic a race? I was under the impression that a person could be hispanic regardless of their race. There are lots of people of various races who speak Spanish.
Anyway, the issue to me is not race. It is an average guy thinking he can act like he is a police officer. This seems to me to be a very dangerous thing for average people to think and can only lead to more of this kind of thing.
JA_Cruise at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:03PM JST
Anyway, the facts don't add up with Zimmerman. Why the heck did he feel he had to pursue the kid in the first place, he had a drink and some candy in his hand who had his hoodie on because it was raining, hardly an action that warrants approaching him. I just don't believe Zim's story and doesn't add up to the cell phone conversation that Martin and his friend had. And his stupid statement about the gun, what the heck is he trying to say.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:17PM JST
What do you think is the legal basis for what Zimmerman did?
Self-Defense
Do you think it was correct for him to not follow the directions of the police dispatcher?
No
What if it were your own child that was killed in this way, for nothing.
17 years old is not a child.
How would you feel?
Grief stricken and would want to know the real facts behind the events that led to the loss. So far all the facts support Zimmerman's version of what happen that tragic night.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:34PM JST
Self-Defense
Okay, how is it self-defense when Zimmerman apparently initiated the confrontation? If Martin walked up to him, I could see self-defense as being possible. However, Zimmerman went up to a person who was doing absolutely nothing illegal and confronted them. How do you see this as self-defense? Could you explain your reasoning for this?
No
Fair enough. I agree. I guess that is why I find it hard to follow the self-defense route in this.
17 years old is not a child.
When it is your own child, they are your child no matter what age they are. I am sure you would agree with that and that is what I meant by child. However, in point of fact, it seems the age of majority in Florida is 18. So, it seems he was legally considered a child in Florida.
So far all the facts support Zimmerman's version of what happen that tragic night.
Well, I am not quite sure we have all the facts. However, following an innocent citizen who is doing nothing at all wrong does not sound like self-defense to me. It sounds like instigating a confrontation.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:45PM JST
sailwind: "So far all the facts support Zimmerman's version of what happen that tragic night."
What about Martin's viewpoint on what happened? oh wait, he was murdered... guess that's convenient for Zimmerman to present 'the facts'. Bet he's not sorry about that point.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:13PM JST
How do you see this as self-defense? Could you explain your reasoning for this?
I base it on the Evidence
WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.
WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.
When you compare Trayvon’s non-fatal injury with Zimmerman's bloody head wounds, the autopsy evidence is better for the defense, Sheaffer said.
“It goes along with Zimmerman's story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said.
The injury to Martin’s knuckle also fits with Zimmerman's story that before he shot and killed Martin, Martin had broken his nose and knocked him to the ground, slamming his head on the sidewalk.
Also as far as his claim that Martin had broken his nose its also been verified as true.
A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.
sailwind: "WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died."
Did those magically appear or did they appear after Zimmerman went out of his way to threaten a kid carrying skittles and iced tea home? If the law of the land applies to anyone here, it's Martin -- he had some lunatic approach and confront him, disobeying the dispatchers orders, and for all Martin knew the man was going to take his life -- oh wait... he did! And yet you guys find the law on Zimmerman's side when ALL OF THIS could have been prevented if he were not such a criminal.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:19PM JST
sailwind: "“It goes along with Zimmerman's story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said."
Please explain he events that led to Zimmerman supposedly getting 'beaten up'. Who's fault is it, if what he says is true, is it that he got beaten up? I'll give you a hint. Starts with 'Zimmer' and ends wih 'man'. Had he not done what he did, Martin would be alive -- he murdered him, plain and simple, through his own actions.
lucabrasi at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:21PM JST
He then said Martin reached for his gun. “At that point I realized that it wasn’t my gun, it wasn’t his gun, it was the gun.”
Zimmerman grabbed the handgun
Very suspicious. If Martin "reached for the gun", why didn't he take it? This chap's got a lot of explaining to do in court.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:24PM JST
sailwind,
“It goes along with Zimmerman's story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said.
Yes, but we do not know what happened up to that point, do we? How did Zimmerman approach Martin? What did he say and do? Did he just walk up calmly and talk to Martin?
Let me speculate a bit for the opposite argument. What if Zimmerman came up to Martin all agressive and started asking questions or even pushed him? Would that still make it self-defense to shoot him if he reacted? I do not know what happened, but I just do not see this as being a clear cut case. If you have more information about what happened or witnesses, that might make me see things differently. However, I guess I still have a big problem with some guy just walking up to another person, who is not doing anything illegal, and acting like a police officer. I only want people who are actual police officers to do that kind of work.
Molenir at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:48PM JST
Actually, that is an interesting point. It seems that the law, or the authorities there, have decided he did murder Martin as evidenced by him being charged.
Actually, this is evidence of how the justice system can be abused. The cops, after looking at the evidence, decided not to arrest him. The prosecutors had not interest in prosecuting him either. It was only after the outcry that there was a special prosecutor appointed by the governor to look over the case. She was the one who decided to charge him with 2nd degree murder. However in her filing she deliberately left out quite a bit of evidence. Something that could come back on her in the future. This makes it seems like the charges are not based on evidence, but rather the outcry over the case.
Okay, how is it self-defense when Zimmerman apparently initiated the confrontation? If Martin walked up to him, I could see self-defense as being possible. However, Zimmerman went up to a person who was doing absolutely nothing illegal and confronted them.
Actually, most of the statements I've heard suggest that Zimmerman was following Martin, but did not confront him. In fact, from what I've heard, its most likely that Martin, seeing someone following him, approached and confronted him. Given the beating that Martin put on Zimmerman, it seems more then likely this is in fact what occurred. Additionally, given the witness statements, saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching him, it seems like a finding of self defense is definitely justified in this case.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:53PM JST
Ben Jack,
Just for the record my personal opinion is this is a tragic set of circumstances that ended with a life taken. I don't believe Zimmerman should not receive some punishment for not obeying the 911 dispatcher as his job as neighborhood watch was effectively done after he called them at that point. However not obeying the 911 dispatcher is not a crime and showing poor judgement on Zimmerman's part for not following their direction is not a crime. I understand the frustration in that and the general public's frustration in that but it is what it is. It is also unfortunate that their was gun involved as if that was taken away from all of this it would be a totally different case.
A case, since Zimmerman had called 9/11 and the cops were on the way, the police would have came upon a scene where Martin was still beating the hell out of Zimmerman and he would have been arrested and charged with a minimum of assault and battery. Any self-defense claim by Martin would have been laughed out of court and by the police as it is obvious who was getting the beating here.
As far your request:
If you have more information about what happened or witnesses, that might make me see things differently.
Two police reports written the night that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin said that Zimmerman had a bloody face and nose, according to police reports made public today.
The reports also note that two witness accounts appear to back up Zimmerman's version of what happened when they describe a man on his back with another person wearing a hoodie straddling him and throwing punches.
Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.
"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style,'" the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."
A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police.
The documents state that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
Hmmm...... would someone say that he is "sorry" for being brutally attacked?
Molenir at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:59PM JST
Hmmm...... would someone say that he is "sorry" for being brutally attacked?
If you were attacked, defended yourself, and your attacker ended up dead, oh and he was 17 years old, would you be sorry?
Thomas Anderson at Jul. 19, 2012 - 07:07PM JST
If you were attacked, defended yourself, and your attacker ended up dead, oh and he was 17 years old, would you be sorry?
Well that depends on the severity of the attacker. If he was some crazed lunatic thug... then I'm sorry but I probably wouldn't feel sorry but I'd feel that I was just trying to save my life from some crazed thug.
Laguna at Jul. 19, 2012 - 08:35PM JST
...Martin was still beating the hell out of Zimmerman....
Zimmerman's injuries were superficial. He did not suffer a concussion; he even declined hospitalization that night and follow-up visits with a physician. Minor cuts on the back of the head and bruising around the eyes and nose do not indicate an attempt to inflict serious injury; they are indicative of a tussle in which punches were pulled. My son is 17, and if he desired to do serious damage to someone with the build of Zimmerman, he certainly would have left vastly more extensive damage.
Still, all this is heresay. An issue perhaps more important is the eagerness of some Americans to encourage Americans to own guns, carry them, and use them at the slightest provocation.
Wakarimasen at Jul. 19, 2012 - 08:54PM JST
I think his choice of forum to be interviewed pretty much says it all.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 08:56PM JST
they are indicative of a tussle in which punches were pulled
I guess that also explains the broken skin that was found on his Trayvon Martin's knuckles.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 09:46PM JST
sailwind,
Let me say that I agree for the most part with your first paragraph.
Now, let me attempt to respond, obviously subjectively and with speculation in some spots, to what you have written.
Any self-defense claim by Martin would have been laughed out of court and by the police as it is obvious who was getting the beating here.
Maybe yes. Maybe no. The cops would have probably arrested Martin, however it is possible that they would have also arrested Zimmerman depending on what was said by both parties. The police would realize they came in the middle of something and one would assume they would try to ascertain what had happened up to that point, as well. That part is still not clear of course and it is harder to ascertain because one of the parties cannot be questioned.
The reports also note that two witness accounts appear to back up Zimmerman's version of what happened when they describe a man on his back with another person wearing a hoodie straddling him and throwing punches.
Okay, but do the witnesses describe what happened up to that point? I still would like to know what happened up to that point. Who is to say Martin was not on the bottom and Zimmerman on top up to that point? Who is to say Zimmerman was not stalking Martin before the fight? Who is to say that Zimmerman was not acting in a threatening manner before the fight? Of course, this is completely speculation on my part and I fully admit this. However, I do think things are not really clear enough to be certain of what happened up until the fight.
What we do know is that Zimmerman, in possession of a gun, followed an innocent person. I think it is possible to assume that if he did not have that weapon that it is highly unlikely that he would have ignored the dispatchers advice to not follow Martin. I also think it is possible to assume he would not have followed Martin in the way he did if he did not have a gun.
I fully would like to speculate that he was acting more like a police officer than a neighborhood watch member because he had that gun.
I guess that also explains the broken skin that was found on his Trayvon Martin's knuckles.
It could. The broken skin could possibly also be explained by scrapping them on the sidewalk/street, as well. Again, we can only speculate.
Clearly we do have a difference in the way we view this case. However, I do believe you have absolutely no racist motives whatsoever for your position. I believe that your position just happens to be your position. I have read too much of what you have written here to think of you as a racist.
It will be interesting to see where this case goes as it seems to be a very important one for people in the US.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 09:50PM JST
Actually, this is evidence of how the justice system can be abused. The cops, after looking at the evidence, decided not to arrest him. The prosecutors had not interest in prosecuting him either. It was only after the outcry that there was a special prosecutor appointed by the governor to look over the case.
That is one way to look at it. However, isn't it also possible to say this is evidence of a case the police and the prosecutors should have been interested from the beginning and that the outcry made the governor realize this?
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:19PM JST
Ben Jack,
However, I do believe you have absolutely no racist motives whatsoever for your position.
Thank you, though I will be honest I was rather taken aback that you would subscribe to the notion that I had any racist motivation at all in the first place, though I understand that is still the reality when it comes to stories like this. Just my personal opinion, but I feel that is still rather sad that in 2012 that a difference of opinion still has to be viewed and vetted first through the prism of race first when the parties involved are from different ethnic backgrounds. One day we may actually get to what Martin Luther King started in 1961 on judging all men by the content of their character and not the color of their skin instead of the race card being played to try and nullify a genuine difference of opinion or on ones political outlook.
A couple a salient points that can viewed in a better context now of the events that night with the passage of time that were not really apparent until now at least in my view.
I think it is possible to assume that if he did not have that weapon that it is highly unlikely that he would have
ignored the dispatchers advice to not follow Martin.
He actually did obey the 9/11 operator according to the transcript of the call and lost Martin whereabouts:
911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]
Zimmerman:
George. He ran.
He's also stating that he got out of the his truck to look for an address to tell the police where he is at. It really didn't make sense to me at first when this all started to come out since he was already out of his truck but reviewing the original 911 call and this claim:
911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
He then proceeds to tell 9/11 to have the police call him and he will tell them exactly where he is at.
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]
Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …
Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]
911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.
911 dispatcher:
OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]
Zimmerman:
Thanks.
911 dispatcher:
You’re welcome.
Call ends 4:07
It almost sounds like he was prompted a bit by 9/11 to take that action. A bit of conjecture on my part I admit but it does match his version of what happened that night.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:34PM JST
Thank you, though I will be honest I was rather taken aback that you would subscribe to the notion that I had any racist motivation at all in the first place, though I understand that is still the reality when it comes to stories like this.
Ummm, I'm not at all sure how you get that I thought you had any racist motivation in the first place as I was clearly stating that I knew you did not.
However, I do believe you have absolutely no racist motives whatsoever for your position. I believe that your position just happens to be your position. I have read too much of what you have written here to think of you as a racist.
Unless you thought "here" meant this thread. It didn't. I was talking about your comments on JT in general.
In fact, that was my point when I asked you about your white hispanic comment. I do not think race has any place in this discussion at all. I assumed you were trying to suggest saying Zimmerman was white was a bad thing or somehow negated him being hispanic, neither of which I think are true.
Your call transcript does not justify him following Martin. I appreciate you finding it and pasting it for me. However, I have to confess I am not sure what I am supposed to make of it, except that the dispatcher clearly said they did not need him to do that. All he had to do was wait for the police.
What I really want to know is what happened when he continued to follow Martin.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:45PM JST
It's pretty clear that from his 'apology' he not only feels that he is not to blame, but that it was some external locus of control that guided him to 'do what's right'. I mean, if god led him to do it, it couldn't have been wrong, right? The saddest part about megalomaniacs like this is that he is literally SEEKING media attention as some Christian nutbag and trying to defend his actions as the hand of god.
Newsflash: God didn't ask him to disobey dispatchers and chase a kid with skittles and iced tea. If he thinks any god had anything to do with that he is so completely oblivious to his own ability to act he deserves much, much more than life in prison -- as god's plan, of course. What a pathetic sack of dung, to put it mildly. I take back what I said about his apology earlier, it's clear he just meant it as a kind of media stunt to make him look a little better.
Along with this guys record of molestation, his lying about money his family raised, and needless to say the fact that he intentionally murdered a young man because he was 'suspicious', I think life in prison is good enough. He can write his moronic book from in the cell. Gun nutters and Floridians who agree with this stupid law will buy and support it, but no one else.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:56PM JST
Bottom line is, by Florida law, Martin was defending himself agains the lunatic Zimmerman. If they deny this and suggest that it was instead the instigator Zimmeran 'defending' himself, the law does not work. Anyone who cannot see this as clear cut as it is is simply stupid.
JTDanMan at Jul. 20, 2012 - 01:16AM JST
"It was all God's plan."
Yeah, well, capital punishment is legal in the U.S. state of Florida. Chalk that one up to God too...
Molenir at Jul. 20, 2012 - 01:17AM JST
Bottom line is, by Florida law, Martin was defending himself agains the lunatic Zimmerman. If they deny this and suggest that it was instead the instigator Zimmeran 'defending' himself, the law does not work. Anyone who cannot see this as clear cut as it is is simply stupid.
Reading your post, that reiterates the unsupported allegations accusing him of molestation, the ranting against his faith and beliefs, demonizing him as a megalomaniac. And of course insisting, despite all evidence to the contrary, that in fact Zimmerman assaulted, attacked and murdered Martin. It really makes me wonder about you. I know we don't see eye to eye on many issues. You are so far to the left, and I am of course conservative, however normally you are at least rational, in you irrational loony way. The unbridled hate demonstrated by your posts on this subject really makes me wonder about you. Why are you so invested in this case? Was Martin a personal friend?
JTDanMan at Jul. 20, 2012 - 01:23AM JST
Bottom line is, by Florida law, Martin was defending himself agains the lunatic Zimmerman.
That is yet to be determined. If (the jury finds that) Zimmerman instigated the confrontation, the Stand Your Ground Defense does not trigger.
FruitsBasketFan at Jul. 20, 2012 - 07:48PM JST
Considering that Zimmerman refused to obey orders from dispatchers not to follow him.....I would suspect that he initiated the fight and Martin used self defense because Zimmerman may have threatened or tried to do harm because he was that much of a hardhead (he refused to follow police's orders for crying out loud).
And really....Fox News? I know that he told his "story" there but really?
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Madverts at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:17PM JST
" I hate to think that because of this incident, because of my actions, it’s polarized and divided America, and I’m truly sorry."
You're sorry for yourself dude because your ass is in a sling and you're going to jail with a "born to lose" tattoo because of your actions. You mention the Martin family only after 4 other groups you apologize to.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:21PM JST
Never mind a person being dead because of your actions.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:23PM JST
Just off the top of my head, how about listening to the police dispatcher that told you to stand down? That probably would have prevented you taking his life.
summer of recovery at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:32PM JST
I fail to see why this story is newsworthy now or when the shooting first happened. In light of the huge nember of fatalities in America it is a tiny fleeting blip. There are literally a dozen young Trayvon Martin cases each weekend in the city of Chicago alone. But the current regime in the nation's capital does need show trials to retain its street cred...
Madverts at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:37PM JST
" There are literally a dozen young Trayvon Martin cases each weekend in the city of Chicago alone"
A dozen unarmed teenagers shot by wannabe cops that are suspicious of black people in their community? This is news from Chicago.
Madverts at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:39PM JST
" But the current regime in the nation's capital does need show trials to retain its street cred..."
This is quite a new angle from you on this case. Are you giving up your past attempts at falsely painting Martin as a drug-dealing thug who basically got what he deserved?
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:51PM JST
To the thumbs downers, why do you think the person had the right to act like a police officer? Don't you think that should be the job of actual police officers? Don't you think if Zimmerman had waited for the police, since Martin was not actually doing anything illegal and all, that no one would have died in this case? After all, Martin did not have a gun. Martin was not committing any crimes. What exactly is reasonable about everyday people acting like police officers? Could you explain it ito me?
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 03:56PM JST
Saying sorry can go a long way in terms of mollifying, to an extent, the feelings of those who have lost a loved one as a result of the suspect's actions, and since said family knows they cannot get him or her back, but it's not enough when followed with "I'm not a murderer".
I don't know if the man is truly racist or not, but he definitely murdered the kid, regardless of whether some ridiculous law chooses semantics to say he did not.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:00PM JST
Actually, that is an interesting point. It seems that the law, or the authorities there, have decided he did murder Martin as evidenced by him being charged.
Laguna at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:20PM JST
Hannity asked Zimmerman, "Is there anything that you regret? Do you regret getting out of the car to follow Trayon that night? Do you regret that you had a gun that night?"
Zimmerman responded, "No, sir. I feel that it was all God's plan and not for me to second-guess it or judge it."
His god certainly works in mysterious ways. Smart statement to make, though - those gun nuts that are funding his celebrity lawyer also tend to be religious zealots.
freakashow at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:28PM JST
Terrible incident. Seems to me the police are siding a bit with ZImmerman because they know they failed to do their job and respond to calls of break-ins in the area. I feel that if they did their job, we'd have one less trigger-happy man trying to off a suspect, and one less dead person. Putting the law in a civilian's hands just makes it more dangerous that something like this could happen. Was Zimmerman's life in real danger? Or was he just fed up to the point where he was just looking for anyone who fit in his racial profiling? We may never know, but I hope we do find out.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:38PM JST
I see the term "white hispanic" has now been dropped in the reporting on him.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:48PM JST
Apparently they haven't been in contact with the FBI recently.
After interviewing 30 people familiar with George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain charged with killing African-American teenager Trayvon Martin, FBI agents found no evidence that the shooting was driven by racial bias or animus.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0712/FBI-report-No-evidence-George-Zimmerman-is-racist
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:53PM JST
sailwind,
What do you think is the legal basis for what Zimmerman did? Do you think it was correct for him to not follow the directions of the police dispatcher? What if it were your own child that was killed in this way, for nothing. How would you feel?
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 04:59PM JST
Is hispanic a race? I was under the impression that a person could be hispanic regardless of their race. There are lots of people of various races who speak Spanish.
Anyway, the issue to me is not race. It is an average guy thinking he can act like he is a police officer. This seems to me to be a very dangerous thing for average people to think and can only lead to more of this kind of thing.
JA_Cruise at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:03PM JST
Anyway, the facts don't add up with Zimmerman. Why the heck did he feel he had to pursue the kid in the first place, he had a drink and some candy in his hand who had his hoodie on because it was raining, hardly an action that warrants approaching him. I just don't believe Zim's story and doesn't add up to the cell phone conversation that Martin and his friend had. And his stupid statement about the gun, what the heck is he trying to say.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:17PM JST
Self-Defense
No
17 years old is not a child.
Grief stricken and would want to know the real facts behind the events that led to the loss. So far all the facts support Zimmerman's version of what happen that tragic night.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:34PM JST
Okay, how is it self-defense when Zimmerman apparently initiated the confrontation? If Martin walked up to him, I could see self-defense as being possible. However, Zimmerman went up to a person who was doing absolutely nothing illegal and confronted them. How do you see this as self-defense? Could you explain your reasoning for this?
Fair enough. I agree. I guess that is why I find it hard to follow the self-defense route in this.
When it is your own child, they are your child no matter what age they are. I am sure you would agree with that and that is what I meant by child. However, in point of fact, it seems the age of majority in Florida is 18. So, it seems he was legally considered a child in Florida.
Well, I am not quite sure we have all the facts. However, following an innocent citizen who is doing nothing at all wrong does not sound like self-defense to me. It sounds like instigating a confrontation.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 05:45PM JST
sailwind: "So far all the facts support Zimmerman's version of what happen that tragic night."
What about Martin's viewpoint on what happened? oh wait, he was murdered... guess that's convenient for Zimmerman to present 'the facts'. Bet he's not sorry about that point.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:13PM JST
I base it on the Evidence
WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died.
WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.
When you compare Trayvon’s non-fatal injury with Zimmerman's bloody head wounds, the autopsy evidence is better for the defense, Sheaffer said.
“It goes along with Zimmerman's story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said.
The injury to Martin’s knuckle also fits with Zimmerman's story that before he shot and killed Martin, Martin had broken his nose and knocked him to the ground, slamming his head on the sidewalk.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:16PM JST
Also as far as his claim that Martin had broken his nose its also been verified as true.
A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.UAb1dfXcC3c
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:17PM JST
sailwind: "WFTV has confirmed that autopsy results show 17-year-old Trayvon Martin had injuries to his knuckles when he died."
Did those magically appear or did they appear after Zimmerman went out of his way to threaten a kid carrying skittles and iced tea home? If the law of the land applies to anyone here, it's Martin -- he had some lunatic approach and confront him, disobeying the dispatchers orders, and for all Martin knew the man was going to take his life -- oh wait... he did! And yet you guys find the law on Zimmerman's side when ALL OF THIS could have been prevented if he were not such a criminal.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:19PM JST
sailwind: "“It goes along with Zimmerman's story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said."
Please explain he events that led to Zimmerman supposedly getting 'beaten up'. Who's fault is it, if what he says is true, is it that he got beaten up? I'll give you a hint. Starts with 'Zimmer' and ends wih 'man'. Had he not done what he did, Martin would be alive -- he murdered him, plain and simple, through his own actions.
lucabrasi at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:21PM JST
Zimmerman grabbed the handgun
Very suspicious. If Martin "reached for the gun", why didn't he take it? This chap's got a lot of explaining to do in court.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:24PM JST
sailwind,
Yes, but we do not know what happened up to that point, do we? How did Zimmerman approach Martin? What did he say and do? Did he just walk up calmly and talk to Martin?
Let me speculate a bit for the opposite argument. What if Zimmerman came up to Martin all agressive and started asking questions or even pushed him? Would that still make it self-defense to shoot him if he reacted? I do not know what happened, but I just do not see this as being a clear cut case. If you have more information about what happened or witnesses, that might make me see things differently. However, I guess I still have a big problem with some guy just walking up to another person, who is not doing anything illegal, and acting like a police officer. I only want people who are actual police officers to do that kind of work.
Molenir at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:48PM JST
Actually, this is evidence of how the justice system can be abused. The cops, after looking at the evidence, decided not to arrest him. The prosecutors had not interest in prosecuting him either. It was only after the outcry that there was a special prosecutor appointed by the governor to look over the case. She was the one who decided to charge him with 2nd degree murder. However in her filing she deliberately left out quite a bit of evidence. Something that could come back on her in the future. This makes it seems like the charges are not based on evidence, but rather the outcry over the case.
Actually, most of the statements I've heard suggest that Zimmerman was following Martin, but did not confront him. In fact, from what I've heard, its most likely that Martin, seeing someone following him, approached and confronted him. Given the beating that Martin put on Zimmerman, it seems more then likely this is in fact what occurred. Additionally, given the witness statements, saying Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching him, it seems like a finding of self defense is definitely justified in this case.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:53PM JST
Ben Jack,
Just for the record my personal opinion is this is a tragic set of circumstances that ended with a life taken. I don't believe Zimmerman should not receive some punishment for not obeying the 911 dispatcher as his job as neighborhood watch was effectively done after he called them at that point. However not obeying the 911 dispatcher is not a crime and showing poor judgement on Zimmerman's part for not following their direction is not a crime. I understand the frustration in that and the general public's frustration in that but it is what it is. It is also unfortunate that their was gun involved as if that was taken away from all of this it would be a totally different case.
A case, since Zimmerman had called 9/11 and the cops were on the way, the police would have came upon a scene where Martin was still beating the hell out of Zimmerman and he would have been arrested and charged with a minimum of assault and battery. Any self-defense claim by Martin would have been laughed out of court and by the police as it is obvious who was getting the beating here.
As far your request:
Two police reports written the night that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin said that Zimmerman had a bloody face and nose, according to police reports made public today.
The reports also note that two witness accounts appear to back up Zimmerman's version of what happened when they describe a man on his back with another person wearing a hoodie straddling him and throwing punches.
Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.
"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style,'" the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."
A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police.
The documents state that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852#.UAb6pPXcC3c
Thomas Anderson at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:55PM JST
Hmmm...... would someone say that he is "sorry" for being brutally attacked?
Molenir at Jul. 19, 2012 - 06:59PM JST
If you were attacked, defended yourself, and your attacker ended up dead, oh and he was 17 years old, would you be sorry?
Thomas Anderson at Jul. 19, 2012 - 07:07PM JST
Well that depends on the severity of the attacker. If he was some crazed lunatic thug... then I'm sorry but I probably wouldn't feel sorry but I'd feel that I was just trying to save my life from some crazed thug.
Laguna at Jul. 19, 2012 - 08:35PM JST
Zimmerman's injuries were superficial. He did not suffer a concussion; he even declined hospitalization that night and follow-up visits with a physician. Minor cuts on the back of the head and bruising around the eyes and nose do not indicate an attempt to inflict serious injury; they are indicative of a tussle in which punches were pulled. My son is 17, and if he desired to do serious damage to someone with the build of Zimmerman, he certainly would have left vastly more extensive damage.
Still, all this is heresay. An issue perhaps more important is the eagerness of some Americans to encourage Americans to own guns, carry them, and use them at the slightest provocation.
Wakarimasen at Jul. 19, 2012 - 08:54PM JST
I think his choice of forum to be interviewed pretty much says it all.
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 08:56PM JST
I guess that also explains the broken skin that was found on his Trayvon Martin's knuckles.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 09:46PM JST
sailwind,
Let me say that I agree for the most part with your first paragraph.
Now, let me attempt to respond, obviously subjectively and with speculation in some spots, to what you have written.
Maybe yes. Maybe no. The cops would have probably arrested Martin, however it is possible that they would have also arrested Zimmerman depending on what was said by both parties. The police would realize they came in the middle of something and one would assume they would try to ascertain what had happened up to that point, as well. That part is still not clear of course and it is harder to ascertain because one of the parties cannot be questioned.
Okay, but do the witnesses describe what happened up to that point? I still would like to know what happened up to that point. Who is to say Martin was not on the bottom and Zimmerman on top up to that point? Who is to say Zimmerman was not stalking Martin before the fight? Who is to say that Zimmerman was not acting in a threatening manner before the fight? Of course, this is completely speculation on my part and I fully admit this. However, I do think things are not really clear enough to be certain of what happened up until the fight.
What we do know is that Zimmerman, in possession of a gun, followed an innocent person. I think it is possible to assume that if he did not have that weapon that it is highly unlikely that he would have ignored the dispatchers advice to not follow Martin. I also think it is possible to assume he would not have followed Martin in the way he did if he did not have a gun.
I fully would like to speculate that he was acting more like a police officer than a neighborhood watch member because he had that gun.
It could. The broken skin could possibly also be explained by scrapping them on the sidewalk/street, as well. Again, we can only speculate.
Clearly we do have a difference in the way we view this case. However, I do believe you have absolutely no racist motives whatsoever for your position. I believe that your position just happens to be your position. I have read too much of what you have written here to think of you as a racist.
It will be interesting to see where this case goes as it seems to be a very important one for people in the US.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 09:50PM JST
That is one way to look at it. However, isn't it also possible to say this is evidence of a case the police and the prosecutors should have been interested from the beginning and that the outcry made the governor realize this?
sailwind at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:19PM JST
Ben Jack,
Thank you, though I will be honest I was rather taken aback that you would subscribe to the notion that I had any racist motivation at all in the first place, though I understand that is still the reality when it comes to stories like this. Just my personal opinion, but I feel that is still rather sad that in 2012 that a difference of opinion still has to be viewed and vetted first through the prism of race first when the parties involved are from different ethnic backgrounds. One day we may actually get to what Martin Luther King started in 1961 on judging all men by the content of their character and not the color of their skin instead of the race card being played to try and nullify a genuine difference of opinion or on ones political outlook.
A couple a salient points that can viewed in a better context now of the events that night with the passage of time that were not really apparent until now at least in my view.
He actually did obey the 9/11 operator according to the transcript of the call and lost Martin whereabouts:
911 dispatcher: Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman: Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher: OK. We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
Zimmerman: OK. [2:28]
911 dispatcher: Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]
Zimmerman: George. He ran.
He's also stating that he got out of the his truck to look for an address to tell the police where he is at. It really didn't make sense to me at first when this all started to come out since he was already out of his truck but reviewing the original 911 call and this claim:
911 dispatcher: Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
Zimmerman: Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
He then proceeds to tell 9/11 to have the police call him and he will tell them exactly where he is at.
911 dispatcher: OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]
Zimmerman: Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]
911 dispatcher: Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …
Zimmerman: Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]
911 dispatcher: OK, that’s no problem.
911 dispatcher: OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]
Zimmerman: Thanks.
911 dispatcher: You’re welcome.
Call ends 4:07
It almost sounds like he was prompted a bit by 9/11 to take that action. A bit of conjecture on my part I admit but it does match his version of what happened that night.
Ben Jack at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:34PM JST
Ummm, I'm not at all sure how you get that I thought you had any racist motivation in the first place as I was clearly stating that I knew you did not.
Unless you thought "here" meant this thread. It didn't. I was talking about your comments on JT in general.
In fact, that was my point when I asked you about your white hispanic comment. I do not think race has any place in this discussion at all. I assumed you were trying to suggest saying Zimmerman was white was a bad thing or somehow negated him being hispanic, neither of which I think are true.
Your call transcript does not justify him following Martin. I appreciate you finding it and pasting it for me. However, I have to confess I am not sure what I am supposed to make of it, except that the dispatcher clearly said they did not need him to do that. All he had to do was wait for the police.
What I really want to know is what happened when he continued to follow Martin.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:45PM JST
It's pretty clear that from his 'apology' he not only feels that he is not to blame, but that it was some external locus of control that guided him to 'do what's right'. I mean, if god led him to do it, it couldn't have been wrong, right? The saddest part about megalomaniacs like this is that he is literally SEEKING media attention as some Christian nutbag and trying to defend his actions as the hand of god.
Newsflash: God didn't ask him to disobey dispatchers and chase a kid with skittles and iced tea. If he thinks any god had anything to do with that he is so completely oblivious to his own ability to act he deserves much, much more than life in prison -- as god's plan, of course. What a pathetic sack of dung, to put it mildly. I take back what I said about his apology earlier, it's clear he just meant it as a kind of media stunt to make him look a little better.
Along with this guys record of molestation, his lying about money his family raised, and needless to say the fact that he intentionally murdered a young man because he was 'suspicious', I think life in prison is good enough. He can write his moronic book from in the cell. Gun nutters and Floridians who agree with this stupid law will buy and support it, but no one else.
smithinjapan at Jul. 19, 2012 - 11:56PM JST
Bottom line is, by Florida law, Martin was defending himself agains the lunatic Zimmerman. If they deny this and suggest that it was instead the instigator Zimmeran 'defending' himself, the law does not work. Anyone who cannot see this as clear cut as it is is simply stupid.
JTDanMan at Jul. 20, 2012 - 01:16AM JST
"It was all God's plan."
Yeah, well, capital punishment is legal in the U.S. state of Florida. Chalk that one up to God too...
Molenir at Jul. 20, 2012 - 01:17AM JST
Reading your post, that reiterates the unsupported allegations accusing him of molestation, the ranting against his faith and beliefs, demonizing him as a megalomaniac. And of course insisting, despite all evidence to the contrary, that in fact Zimmerman assaulted, attacked and murdered Martin. It really makes me wonder about you. I know we don't see eye to eye on many issues. You are so far to the left, and I am of course conservative, however normally you are at least rational, in you irrational loony way. The unbridled hate demonstrated by your posts on this subject really makes me wonder about you. Why are you so invested in this case? Was Martin a personal friend?
JTDanMan at Jul. 20, 2012 - 01:23AM JST
That is yet to be determined. If (the jury finds that) Zimmerman instigated the confrontation, the Stand Your Ground Defense does not trigger.
FruitsBasketFan at Jul. 20, 2012 - 07:48PM JST
Considering that Zimmerman refused to obey orders from dispatchers not to follow him.....I would suspect that he initiated the fight and Martin used self defense because Zimmerman may have threatened or tried to do harm because he was that much of a hardhead (he refused to follow police's orders for crying out loud).
And really....Fox News? I know that he told his "story" there but really?