This will be interesting if this is a domestic terrorist attack/hate crime.
MrsT1 at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:33AM JST
If it was a mistaken identity and the attacker thought they were Muslim... Well just goes to show the general ignorance of these bigots
tmarie at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:15AM JST
Obama,I know it's election season and all but perhaps now you can see the importance in addressing the gun control issue? How many more people have to die in random shootings before he has the balls to do something?
Noliving at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:22AM JST
Obama,I know it's election season and all but perhaps now you can see the importance in addressing the gun control issue? How many more people have to die in random shootings before he has the balls to do something
A lot more do. The good news is that gun violence on average has been falling for the past 20 years, so there really isn't a need to introduce "further" gun control when gun violence as a whole is on the way down. To give you an idea of how rare it is to be murdered by a gun in the US more people die by rolling out of their bed in the US each year than are murdered by guns each year in the US.
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:23AM JST
Racial murder.
Noliving at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:26AM JST
Racial murder.
It's definitely starting to appear that way. I bet though it has more to do with religion rather than race but I'm willing to be this guy thought the sikh's were muslims.
Hayden Wellstone at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:17AM JST
The right wing in America becomes more dangerous every day.
Perhaps the USA Patriot Act wasn't a bad idea after all. It gives the govt. the power to go after these right-wingers.
Wakarimasen at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:41AM JST
Guns in America save the day again.
Vesperto at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:55AM JST
were reports of several more people wounded in the shooting, which was the second such massacre in under three weeks, after last month’s attack on cinema-goers in a suburb of Denver, Colorado.
Totally unrelated and sensationalist. The Colorado guy was half-crazy (or so alleges), this one probably thought SIkhs were Muslims. Neither was a massacre. The mass killings in warzones that send people to graves by the hundreds are massacres, the 2005 shooting of 3000+ uzbequi protesters was a massacre, Sebrenica was a massacre... An isolated incident caused by one individual is not a massacre. Stop being sensationalist.
@Hayden Wellstone
Perhaps the USA Patriot Act wasn't a bad idea after all. It gives the govt. the power to go after these right-wingers.
...or they can go after you if they so desire.
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:27AM JST
Most people don't realize that guns (firearms) in the U.S are used for self defense 60 more times than to take lives.
Lizz at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:27AM JST
It's definitely starting to appear that way. I bet though it has more to do with religion rather than race but I'm willing to be this guy thought the sikh's were muslims.
Apparently this was also a Sikh holy day and there was a high Sikh leader or holy man from India visiting today. He was killed which could have been another motive. Certainly would be odd for a conservative/libertarian type out to send a very particular message of political or racial revenge to go so off course in the basic choice of target.
blackpassenger at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:29AM JST
Yet another white guy massacring people in america. And they have the nerve to call black people violent. And by the way, it can't be a racially motivated. Sikhs (south asians) are caucasians and so is the perpetrator.
smithinjapan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:40AM JST
ANOTHER gun-related massacre in the US? Who would have thought!
CrazyJoe: "Most people don't realize that guns (firearms) in the U.S are used for self defense 60 more times than to take lives."
Stats, please.
jessebaybay at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:57AM JST
I keep reading reports there was more than 1 shooter. I wish someone in the FBI (now in control of the investigation) gave us an answer on it?
Lizz at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:16AM JST
I keep reading reports there was more than 1 shooter. I wish someone in the FBI (now in control of the investigation) gave us an answer on it?
The Police in Oak Creek just did a press conference and said there will be no more official information given out until 10:00 a.m. (Central time) tomorrow (Monday) morning. The news outlets are slanting it towards a hate crime -- ex-Army "radical" and "white supremacist" most likely working alone that wanted Sihks dead but for a reason as yet unknown. The multiple gunman angle of eyewitnesses could be simple mis-identification with police in black uniforms ?
Vesperto at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:19AM JST
@jessebaybay
I wish someone in the FBI (now in control of the investigation) gave us an answer on it?
The FBI will post to JT ASAP.
globalwatcher at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:43AM JST
America has gone mad. I have been politically active against Assult Weapons use in US. GUN kills! No BS about it.
What happend to all pro gun people on JT? Please do not hide in the closet, come out and make your point why you stll believe the gun does not kill? Please make your case here. There are too many right wingers including S. Palin and the Tea Party who are strongly associated with NRA. Come out and make your point. I love to hear what you've got to say. Again, we have to do something for change..
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:02PM JST
It seems like random gun shootings happen every day in the US of A... Well what's sad about it is that it's not really surprising with their gun laws.
bruinfan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:30PM JST
@Crazyjoe
If that really is true that gun are used for self defence 60 times more (than used to take lives), it still looks bad for the US that there is such a massive need to be protect oneself from so many crimes.
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:44PM JST
What a total idiot. The Sikhs have not done anybody any harm; in fact the Sikh religion (unlike some others) contains manyy teachings to be admired.
This goon maybe thought the Sikhs are muslims and wanted to take revenge for muslim terrorism? Not bothering to inform himself of course that the Sikhs themselves are frequent targets if jihadist violence.
Stupidity rules.
PeaceWarrior at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:44PM JST
Some of the victims and their relatives are saying that there were four white gunmen dressed in black.
JDB829 at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:45PM JST
Yet again.
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:46PM JST
Zichi:
"
Racial murde
"
Newsflash for you: Sikhism is not a race.
SenseNotSoCommon at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:24PM JST
Our condolences to the bereaved. Once again the US sees the horror of having lax gun controls.
The pro-gun lobby diminishes those lost lives by objectifying the parents, siblings, spouses and lovers as statistics. We are safer among guns than crossing the street, falling out of bed or whatever ridiculous, fatuous crap they can contrive to conceal the reality that America is hostage to an Evil Death Cult of social inadequates.
These homicidal fantasists will invent and exploit any and all justification for their gun fetish.
Man up, boys. There's a big and beautiful world out there. Ditch the guns and join us!
"This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives."
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:39PM JST
@bruinfan
"Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day."
I "usually" don't make up things, especially figures.
Yubaru at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:45PM JST
To give you an idea of how rare it is to be murdered by a gun in the US more people die by rolling out of their bed in the US each year than are murdered by guns each year in the US.
I can not believe that someone would even think that this is true. Something like 450 people per year in the US die from falling out of bed
http://www.oddee.com/item_98002.aspx
There are over 12,000 gun related (murders) in the US yearly, add in the additional something like 15,000 plus per year suicides by firearms and you get a total of nearly 30,000 people PER YEAR.
Care to share what you were smoking when you wrote this?
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:02PM JST
WilliB
Newsflash for you: Sikhism is not a race.
No but Sikh's are Indian (Asian) killed by a white guy.
Sikh rights groups have reported a rise in bias attacks since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.
Two of the dead are cops.
Utrack at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:39PM JST
Well, Officials Believe 'White Supremacist' Behind 'Domestic Terrorism'. The police and FBI think he was a skin head.
The policeman who killed the guy was only 20 years old and received multiple gunshot wounds. He undergoing surgery, I hope he pulls through.
CrazyJoe: You do realize you quoted stats from gun-nutters, right? It's a Wiki-page, to be sure, but people write and post the info themselves, hence it is not an accurate source of information in many cases -- this being one.
I'm not suggesting you make up stats, I just think like many people in the US you are being misled, and buying into the lies of the likes of "gun owners of America".
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:55PM JST
Zichi:
"
No but Sikh's are Indian (Asian) killed by a white guy.
"
No, Sikhs are people who join the Sikh religion. Yes, the majority is in India and Pakistan, but anybody can be Sikh. I had a snow-white professor from Norway at university who was a Sikh.
Go easy on your racist stereotypes, please.
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:57PM JST
@smithinjapan
Okay. I understand now.
smithinjapan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:58PM JST
WilliB: You do realize that 'race' has numerous definitions. I mean, I could argue with people that we are all one race -- the human race -- but unfortunately it has changed over time to mean nationality, a group of people (including religion, yes), and what not. Zichi is anything but racist.
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 04:09PM JST
smithjapan:
"
You do realize that 'race' has numerous definitions
"
No. That is just an excuse to allow people to toss the "racist" label at any occasion in order to win arguments.
No matter how narrowly or broadly you define "race". race is always something that is determined by birth. And that is why racism is so unjustified.
But a religion can never be a race, because because it is not biological. You can not change your "race" (no matter how you define it), but you can change your religion (even if in some religions, you´ll get killed for that.
And that is why Zichi`s comment is so misguided. Sikhs are not a "race". You can join Sikkhism, and you can leave Sikkhism.
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 04:17PM JST
WillB
If you are stating I'm some kind of racist then I deeply resent your mistaken remark. The Sikh religion is practiced by Indians and this attack aginst them was from a white skin head supremacist. The Sikh community had suffered a number of racial attacks since 9/11. In my book this is racial hatred because I doubt very much that the skin head even knew a single thing about Sikhs?
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 04:46PM JST
It's nice to see you so concerned about being PC, WilliB lol.
smithinjapan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:11PM JST
WilliB: "But a religion can never be a race, because because it is not biological."
Like it or not, one of the definitions of 'race' is: "people considered as a group". Granted, the general notion of 'race' refers to lineage, but it's not limited to that definition. The notion that 'race' is biological is ludicrous -- it is a social definition. Much as people here might beg to differ, being 'Japanese' is not biological. What's more, you can change your nationality by CHOICE, so you can therefore change your 'race', can't you?
That said, the attack does indeed seem to be 'racially' motivated, and it's the skinhead who attacked them that was 'misguided', not Zichi.
cracaphat at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:13PM JST
What another white man ? On a killing spree again ? I thought it was Groundhog's Day.
Who woulda thought ?
Elbuda Mexicano at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:20PM JST
Another idiot fool on a rampage?? At least the police shot his ass dead! Bald, skin head white dude?? Sounds like an idiot Neo Nazi. Poor innocent Sikhs, RIP
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:30PM JST
WilliB
I accept that anyone can become a Sikh and there are some white Sikhs but the number is very small, and those attacked at this temple were Indian Sikhs.
Anyone can become a Jew, so does that mean the Jews are a religion and not a race?
But at least we can agree, at the end of the day, there's only one race, the human one.
Utrack at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:33PM JST
I just don't get how some folks just do not value life, this guy let the color of ones skin define his actions and in a negative way. He can't be to bright, cause he killed himself literally and figuritively. From my looking into the etimology of man's migration on this planet. I've read that the first caucazoid was 65% mongloid and 35% negroid. So he basically was killing his origin. He hates people who look different than him, no reason to kill though. I think my sister is a loon but I just say do you.
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:38PM JST
Now what was that argument that a certain JT poster used a few weeks back.... Oh thats right "if only some of the victims had been armed".....
Elbuda Mexicano
Another idiot fool on a rampage?? At least the police shot his ass dead! Bald, skin head white dude?? Sounds like an idiot Neo Nazi.
Actually sounds more like another former member of the US military that has gone off the rails.
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:48PM JST
The skinhead former soldier who killed six people and critically wounded three at a Sikh temple yesterday before police shot him dead could have been part of a violent race hate group. The killer was in his 40's?
Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year.
I didn't even make any statement towards gun control, only that if that statistic is true it bodes ill for the US having such "hidden potential crime" that is far above most other countries.
Elbuda Mexicano at Aug. 06, 2012 - 06:49PM JST
This is not the first time a Sikh has been killed in the USA, a months after 9/11, a poor sod with his turban and beard out in Arizona was mistaken by some idiot fool racist punk as an Arab, as a Muslim oh so the poor Sikh looks close enough to the Saudis who smashed the American Airline jets into the World Trade Center?? I guess close enough for an idiot racist who is fool of hate, kind of like the Anaheim police now. IMHO.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:13PM JST
"Actually sounds more like another former member of the US military that has gone off the rails."
Jumping the gun a bit aren't we cletus?
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:48PM JST
Madverts,
Why jumping the gun, it's widely reported he is a former military member. So no more jumping the gun than elbuda saying he was a neo nazi, and after all that's who my comment was too.
yasukuni at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:57PM JST
Americans, face it. You have too many guns and too many people using them to kill people with.
According to Noliving ...
"To give you an idea of how rare it is to be murdered by a gun in the US more people die by rolling out of their bed in the US each year than are murdered by guns each year in the US."
Okay ...fix your beds too. But, I could probably live with knowing that grandpa died falling out of bed after a pleasant evening watching an old John Wayne movie, than knowing that he was mowed down by an assault rifle by the nice young quiet man down the road who was secretly plotting murder and mayhem and filling his room with a delightful assortment of weaponry he bought on the way to macdonalds.
Guys - time to wake up.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:01PM JST
"Why jumping the gun, it's widely reported he is a former military member"
Really? I've read several different sources, the most I can see being reported as fact is that he's in his 40's, has tattoos and has used one or more alias's in the past....
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just say you seem to be jumping the gun to blame the US military.
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:20PM JST
Madverts,
Do me a favor and go back and read my initial post. It was in response to elbuda claiming the guy is a neo nazi. Notice your not accusing him of jumping the gun, after all he came to his conclusion based on the fact the guy is bald white and has tatts.
I merely said maybe he is a former military member gone off the rails because it is being reported he is former military with 9/11 tatts. Legite question and no where have I blamed the military so maybe it's you jumping the gun about whatml have said.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:31PM JST
"Notice your not accusing him of jumping the gun"
I don't generally read his posts to be honest.
"Legite question and no where have I blamed the military"
Your quote has no question mark, so it's fair to say your making an accusation. I mean, it wouldn't be the first ;)
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:36PM JST
Could you point out where the military angle is being "widely reported" BTW?
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:09PM JST
Madverts,
Sorry for forgetting to put a ? In my comment. But of course you are tending to focus on the poster rather than the story.
As for your question, type "former soldier goes on rampage" into google and you will find the articles mentioning the fact he was intact ex military and they are also now saying he was a white supremacisit. As l said maybe stick to the story rather than the poster.
Anyway lm done not going to comment anymore as you are doing your usual
TheQuestion at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:43PM JST
The attack was the second massacre to shock the United States in under three weeks and will boost pressure on President Barack Obama and his rival Mitt Romney to address gun control before the Nov 6 presidential election.
Nope, they're both going to try a little harder to ignore the issue though.
Gun control just isn't going to happen in the US. Support for it has reached record lows in recent years so it would probably be best to focus on the killing and the killer rather than the tool of destruction.
On that note it sounds a lot like a skin-head that can't tell the difference between religions.
MeanRingo at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:55PM JST
Madverts, just so you don't go all nutty and start a shooting spree, I will once and for all say that this guy was a nutty former member of the US military. Not trying to jump to a conclusion, just going on what has been reported. So, to reiterate, here is yet another hate crime, perpetrated by yet another gun-totting American moron, who was yet another former member of the US military. See the combination? I am just astounded by the idiocy of the US right wing. How can they not see the problem they have with their guns? How can such a large group of people even find enough wool to pull over their eyes? Absolute idiots. Complete morons. If everyone with a gun in the US would just hold it to their own head and pull the trigger, perhaps that would solve the problem.
In any event, I am glad that at least I can see why the US is on such a downward spiral. Not that my understanding of this simple idea has any impact on the situation, but at least I know I am sane.
MrExpatriate at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:55PM JST
I am in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and it is such a somber mood. Satwant Kaleka (the president of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin) is the father of one of my high school teachers, and he was shot trying to tackle the gunman. Sadly, I saw on his son's FB that Satwant died of his injuries late last night. What a terrible feeling this all is.
The crazy thing is that none of the Sikhs I've seen and talked to are angry. They are just sad and confused as to why it happened. I think that is a testament to the peace-loving nature of their religion. I went to the vigil in downtown Milwaukee last night, and it was beautiful. There was not an ounce of hate was exhibited, and all of the Sikhs present just asked for the understanding and acceptance of their religion. They also were very grateful of the overwhelming support that everyone has shown them during such a difficult time, and it goes to show that the power of peace and love can and will triumph over evil.
Photos of the vigil can be viewed on Facebook here:
Sorry for the double post, but here's a YouTube link showing a segment of the vigil as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuo5f4vSLF0&sns=tw
The man speaking at the start and end of the video sum up the mood and mentality of the Sikhs present.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:41PM JST
"Sorry for forgetting to put a ? In my comment. But of course you are tending to focus on the poster rather than the story.
As for your question, type "former soldier goes on rampage" into google and you will find the articles mentioning the fact he was intact ex military and they are also now saying he was a white supremacisit. As l said maybe stick to the story rather than the poster."
When I asked you to clarify hours ago not one major news source was carrying that information.
"Anyway lm done not going to comment anymore as you are doing your usual"
Sure, pick up your ball and go home then :)
serendipitous at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:56PM JST
I recently read about a town in the south of the US where it has been mandatory to own a gun since the early 1990s! Classic! Maybe the US should go that way. Shoots outs on the way home, on the bus, at work and school on a daily basis would lead to an almost natural population cull. Is that the answer?
serendipitous at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:59PM JST
The town's name is Kennesaw in Georgia and the law making it mandatory to own a gun was actually passed in 1982! Democracy at its best!
Cletus at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:02AM JST
Madverts,
"Sorry for forgetting to put a ? In my comment. But of course you are tending to focus on the poster rather than the story. As for your question, type "former soldier goes on rampage" into google and you will find the articles mentioning the fact he was intact ex military and they are also now saying he was a white supremacisit. As l said maybe stick to the story rather than the poster."
When I asked you to clarify hours ago not one major news source was carrying that information.
Lol you asked me exactly 3 hrs 23 minutes ago yet CNN have been running that head line for 7 hrs, the Herald Sun in Melbourne have been running it for over 10 hrs and the nine news at 6 pm had the story. Now there are three major news outlets right there apology accepted.
Sure, pick up your ball and go home then :)
So will u be man enough to admit your personal attack on me was wrong? I'm thinking u won't hence enough said
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:05AM JST
No major source was reporting that earlier that's why I asked you to clarify, and I even stated "I'm not saying it's impossible", so I'm not sure as to why you're getting into such a state or talking about personal attacks?
Moderator at Aug. 07, 2012 - 05:06AM JST
Readers, please keep the discussion civil.
MeanRingo at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:09AM JST
Madvert, fine, dislike my rant. Give it a thumbs down even. But take off your blinders and own up to the problems that led to this idiocy.
Sydney 'Taylor' Miller at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:09AM JST
I would like to know if the shooter obtained them legally or illegally. If they were obtained illegally then making gun laws more strict may do more harm then good because honest citizens cannot protect themselves. Criminals rarely use legally purchased guns. There is a underground market for everything. However, if they were obtained legally like the Colorado shooter, then I would say enforce the gun laws. I do not believe they should add laws making it more difficult to obtain a firearm because that will do more harm than good as well. Unless these killers had severe obvious cases of mental illness, it's nearly impossible to pin point threats. And it's not easy adding to gun laws in fear of violating our "right to bare arms".
Ben Jack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:21AM JST
Some people are getting hung up on the word racist meaning solely aimed at a race when it can also mean being aimed at a culture or ethnicity. If the attack was targeting Sikhs or another culture or ethnicity specifically, I think this easily can be termed a racist hate crime.
Cletus at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:24AM JST
Madverts
I haven't even commented on this thread other than asking Cletus if he wasn't jumping the gun turning this into another one of his rants about the US military we've become accustomed too.
Ah so your not personally attacking me hey? Ah well
It turns out that the killer was apparently ex-military, though the CNN, CBS and BBC articles I scanned when earlier commenting were NOT making this claim, that is why I asked him where he was reading it.
Funny both CNN and Fox were running it 7 hours ago. But l guess its my fault you were not up to date with the news hence l was jumping the gun I.e. was more up to date than you sorry bout that Madverts
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:25AM JST
". If the attack was targeting Sikhs or another culture or ethnicity specifically, I think this easily can be termed a racist hate crime."
I think the appellation is going to get more complicated as I'm sure this was a case of mistaken err...race?
An erroneous racist hate crime?
Ben Jack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:31AM JST
An erroneous racist hate crime?
I might be mistaken myself, but I think I remember reading about hate crimes against Sikhs after 9/11 when some racist morons mistook them for Muslims, which still would have been hate crimes anyway. It is entirely possible that this moron followed the same path.
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:33AM JST
Cletus,
"Ah so your not personally attacking me hey?"
I asked you a question, please try to calm down. You're not seriously going to deny your past of rants against the US military are ye?
"Funny both CNN and Fox were running it 7 hours ago"
I have no reason to lie to you, I've said from the outset "I'm not saying it's impossible". In fact, I even rechecked CNN and the Beeb articles on the shooting before posting to you.
Moderator at Aug. 07, 2012 - 05:09AM JST
Readers, please stop bickering.
Vernie Jefferies at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:34AM JST
Oh what an idiot.... he attacked a peaceful religious organization. Probably assumed that it was a Muslim church. He will definitely receive some bad news in hell.
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:35AM JST
"I might be mistaken myself, but I think I remember reading about hate crimes against Sikhs after 9/11 "
Yeah I think the Americans just executed a nut that went into a gas station for some 9/11 revenge and shot the owner who was Sikh.
Ben Jack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:40AM JST
Madverts,
Didn't hear about that one. This could certainly be a similar case.
He was the first of many apparently. Unbelievable but Sikh's have had over 700 attacks logged by the Sikh Coalition.
LH10 at Aug. 07, 2012 - 02:45AM JST
there were 4 shooters not 1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playerembedded&v=9ecdSKi9fs
and this was a false flag (batman shooting also false flag) there is no such thing of terrorist groups going out to get you all the time. all hysteria. the gov is out to control us lol
LH10 at Aug. 07, 2012 - 02:46AM JST
k didnt work, so search: TEMPLE SHOOTING _"4 SHOOTERS" _Milwaukee on youtube
globalwatcher at Aug. 07, 2012 - 06:38AM JST
Monday, Aug. 6, 10:47 a.m.: The hate-group-tracking Southern Poverty Law Center has done some digging into the suspected gunman in the deadly weekend shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin. According to their research, Wade Michael Page was the leader of a white supremacist band and involved in the U.S. neo-Nazi movement.
The Southern Poverty Law Center is well recognized and respected orgnization and the information is pretty right on target.
There are still too many white supremacists who are maintaining low profiles, politically active associating with NRA mixing well among us, and are fargetting minorities, blacks and immigrants. They hate these groups and want to kill. Their ideology is very similar to the KKK and very dangerous.
Utrack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 07:01AM JST
LH10
Dang, There were 4 shooters. I googled it and Gesh man it could have been alot worse with 4 gunmen inside that Temple. This sucks.
SenseNotSoCommon at Aug. 07, 2012 - 09:34AM JST
So, this week's social inadequate who got to live out his homicidal fantasies is a neo-Nazi lone wolf. Quelle surprise. Of course the Evil Death Cult will be quick to disown their prodigal son, and invent anti-gun conspiracies ('false flag' drivel).
We have seen the very swift 'othering' of the culprit as a 'terrorist', albeit one with a public profile as a white supremacist, despite which he was allowed to purchase, possess and deploy to deadly effect, a firearm.
American society cannot continue abdicating its responsibility through the political expedient of labeling (as disturbed, terrorist or whatever) those American citizens emboldened to pursue their gun fetish to its logical conclusion.
The weblink listed above is a report of HATE crime map in USA released by the Southern Poverty Law Center. I believe a famous speech by MLK "We will overcome" is far from the truth. Americans have to unite and continue educating our kids our core principals all over again : Liberty, Equality and Justice for ALL . Currently thee are over 1000 white supremacist groups existed in US.
Noliving at Aug. 07, 2012 - 09:17PM JST
There are over 12,000 gun related (murders) in the US yearly, add in the additional something like 15,000 plus per year suicides by firearms and you get a total of nearly 30,000 people PER YEAR. Care to share what you were smoking when you wrote this?
Yes I will, yes you are correct and I am wrong. On a different thread(Aurora shooting) we, someone other than you and me, were discussing the number of people that are murdered by military style semi-automatic rifles, they make up less than 1% of all gun crime. For whatever reason that statistic came into my head and I was thinking all homicides. If you go through my previous posts on a different thread you will see where I state that stat that more people die by falling out of their beds than are killed by military style semi-automatic rifles. Although an interesting fact is that more people fall to their deaths in the US than are murdered by guns in the US. I believe it is around 15,000-19,000 people fall to their deaths each year in the US.
According to the FBI the yearly gun related murders are 10,000 or less for the past several years not 12,000.
CrazyJoe: You do realize you quoted stats from gun-nutters, right? It's a Wiki-page, to be sure, but people write and post the info themselves, hence it is not an accurate source of information in many cases -- this being one. I'm not suggesting you make up stats, I just think like many people in the US you are being misled, and buying into the lies of the likes of "gun owners of America".
The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) yields a more conservative estimate, approximately 100,000 defensive gun uses (DGU) each year. So that gives us a range of 100,000 to 2.5 million. The 2.5 million comes from the book Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control by Gary Kleck.
Does that mean using quoted stats from anti-gun people like Brady campaign are not an accurate source of information in many cases?
Now what was that argument that a certain JT poster used a few weeks back.... Oh thats right "if only some of the victims had been armed".....
Ironic sarcasm considering it was another armed individual that stopped this person from doing more harm.
Noliving at Aug. 07, 2012 - 11:37PM JST
I have been politically active against Assult Weapons use in US.
Well one global watcher what is an Assault Weapon? Define it, because it is a made up term by the Brady Campaign to demonize firearms. Two no "assault weapon" was used in this crime. So how would your political action have stopped this?
Also the guns that are claimed to be "assault weapons" are used in less than 1% of all gun crimes. So why do you campaign against them when they are used so rarely?
WilliB at Aug. 08, 2012 - 01:02AM JST
Ben Jack:
"
I might be mistaken myself, but I think I remember reading about hate crimes against Sikhs after 9/11 when some racist morons mistook them for Muslims, which still would have been hate crimes anyway. It is entirely possible that this moron followed the same path.
"
Not only possible, but quite likely. This moron would probably not know the difference between Sikkhism, Islam, or Buddhism, if a peace of the Bahmiyam Buddha fell on his head.
The sad irony is that Sikhs, who practise an truly noble religion, are routinely on the receiving end of violence in muslim countries. While muslims, of course, are never harrassed by Sikhs. And this idiot goes and picks Sikhs as target.
What bottomless stupidity.
Kuya 808 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:12AM JST
I recently read about a town in the south of the US where it has been mandatory to own a gun since the early 1990s! Classic! Maybe the US should go that way. Shoots outs on the way home, on the bus, at work and school on a daily basis would lead to an almost natural population cull. Is that the answer?
The town's name is Kennesaw in Georgia and the law making it mandatory to own a gun was actually passed in 1982! Democracy at its best!
Serendipitous,
I know I’m coming a little late to this discussion but when I saw you mention Kennesaw GA I just had to chime in.
I don’t know if you remember it first hand, but the law in Kennesaw was passed as a reaction to a law that was passed in Morton Grove Illinois the same year that banned the ownership of hand guns for every citizen except law enforcement and active duty armed forces personnel.
At the time there was quite a lot of press about it and a lot of prophecies about the “blood bath” that was in the wings. But then it got pretty quiet. It seems that the dire predictions just didn’t pan out and in fact the results were quite different than what was expected.
Prior to passing it’s total hand gun ban, Morton Grove; a predominantly white suburban community, enjoyed a crime rate significantly below the national and Illinois state average. Immediately after the law went into effect there was a dramatic 15% increase in violent crime. Those rates have remained fairly steady since then. There is no statistical evidence that the gun ban had any positive effect.
On the other hand, prior to passing it’s mandatory firearm ownership law Kennesaw reported a higher than average crime rate. Kennesaw also had a higher percentage of minority groups that have some of the highest crime statistics in America. Yet in the year following the passage of their law Kennesaw experienced a 74% decrease in crimes against individuals and an additional 45% decrease in the year after that. In the sixteen years following passage of this law there were a total of 3 homicides in Kennesaw; 2 by knives and one by firearm. The firearm related death occurred in a Motel and involved visitors to the town, not residents. All crime figures in Kennesaw have decreased in the ensuing years and are below the national and regional averages.
The only way to get an idea about the effectiveness of a law is to look at the measurable results. If you are trying to make a case for crime reduction through banning private ownership of firearms I don’t think Kennesaw Georgia, or Morton Grove Illinois for that matter are good places to start.
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Noliving at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:30AM JST
This will be interesting if this is a domestic terrorist attack/hate crime.
MrsT1 at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:33AM JST
If it was a mistaken identity and the attacker thought they were Muslim... Well just goes to show the general ignorance of these bigots
tmarie at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:15AM JST
Obama,I know it's election season and all but perhaps now you can see the importance in addressing the gun control issue? How many more people have to die in random shootings before he has the balls to do something?
Noliving at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:22AM JST
A lot more do. The good news is that gun violence on average has been falling for the past 20 years, so there really isn't a need to introduce "further" gun control when gun violence as a whole is on the way down. To give you an idea of how rare it is to be murdered by a gun in the US more people die by rolling out of their bed in the US each year than are murdered by guns each year in the US.
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:23AM JST
Racial murder.
Noliving at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:26AM JST
It's definitely starting to appear that way. I bet though it has more to do with religion rather than race but I'm willing to be this guy thought the sikh's were muslims.
Hayden Wellstone at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:17AM JST
The right wing in America becomes more dangerous every day.
Perhaps the USA Patriot Act wasn't a bad idea after all. It gives the govt. the power to go after these right-wingers.
Wakarimasen at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:41AM JST
Guns in America save the day again.
Vesperto at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:55AM JST
Totally unrelated and sensationalist. The Colorado guy was half-crazy (or so alleges), this one probably thought SIkhs were Muslims. Neither was a massacre. The mass killings in warzones that send people to graves by the hundreds are massacres, the 2005 shooting of 3000+ uzbequi protesters was a massacre, Sebrenica was a massacre... An isolated incident caused by one individual is not a massacre. Stop being sensationalist.
@Hayden Wellstone
...or they can go after you if they so desire.
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:27AM JST
Most people don't realize that guns (firearms) in the U.S are used for self defense 60 more times than to take lives.
Lizz at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:27AM JST
It's definitely starting to appear that way. I bet though it has more to do with religion rather than race but I'm willing to be this guy thought the sikh's were muslims.
Apparently this was also a Sikh holy day and there was a high Sikh leader or holy man from India visiting today. He was killed which could have been another motive. Certainly would be odd for a conservative/libertarian type out to send a very particular message of political or racial revenge to go so off course in the basic choice of target.
blackpassenger at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:29AM JST
Yet another white guy massacring people in america. And they have the nerve to call black people violent. And by the way, it can't be a racially motivated. Sikhs (south asians) are caucasians and so is the perpetrator.
smithinjapan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:40AM JST
ANOTHER gun-related massacre in the US? Who would have thought!
CrazyJoe: "Most people don't realize that guns (firearms) in the U.S are used for self defense 60 more times than to take lives."
Stats, please.
jessebaybay at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:57AM JST
I keep reading reports there was more than 1 shooter. I wish someone in the FBI (now in control of the investigation) gave us an answer on it?
Lizz at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:16AM JST
I keep reading reports there was more than 1 shooter. I wish someone in the FBI (now in control of the investigation) gave us an answer on it?
The Police in Oak Creek just did a press conference and said there will be no more official information given out until 10:00 a.m. (Central time) tomorrow (Monday) morning. The news outlets are slanting it towards a hate crime -- ex-Army "radical" and "white supremacist" most likely working alone that wanted Sihks dead but for a reason as yet unknown. The multiple gunman angle of eyewitnesses could be simple mis-identification with police in black uniforms ?
Vesperto at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:19AM JST
@jessebaybay
The FBI will post to JT ASAP.
globalwatcher at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:43AM JST
America has gone mad. I have been politically active against Assult Weapons use in US. GUN kills! No BS about it. What happend to all pro gun people on JT? Please do not hide in the closet, come out and make your point why you stll believe the gun does not kill? Please make your case here. There are too many right wingers including S. Palin and the Tea Party who are strongly associated with NRA. Come out and make your point. I love to hear what you've got to say. Again, we have to do something for change..
Thomas Anderson at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:02PM JST
It seems like random gun shootings happen every day in the US of A... Well what's sad about it is that it's not really surprising with their gun laws.
bruinfan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:30PM JST
@Crazyjoe
If that really is true that gun are used for self defence 60 times more (than used to take lives), it still looks bad for the US that there is such a massive need to be protect oneself from so many crimes.
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:44PM JST
What a total idiot. The Sikhs have not done anybody any harm; in fact the Sikh religion (unlike some others) contains manyy teachings to be admired. This goon maybe thought the Sikhs are muslims and wanted to take revenge for muslim terrorism? Not bothering to inform himself of course that the Sikhs themselves are frequent targets if jihadist violence.
Stupidity rules.
PeaceWarrior at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:44PM JST
Some of the victims and their relatives are saying that there were four white gunmen dressed in black.
JDB829 at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:45PM JST
Yet again.
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 12:46PM JST
Zichi:
Newsflash for you: Sikhism is not a race.
SenseNotSoCommon at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:24PM JST
Our condolences to the bereaved. Once again the US sees the horror of having lax gun controls.
The pro-gun lobby diminishes those lost lives by objectifying the parents, siblings, spouses and lovers as statistics. We are safer among guns than crossing the street, falling out of bed or whatever ridiculous, fatuous crap they can contrive to conceal the reality that America is hostage to an Evil Death Cult of social inadequates.
These homicidal fantasists will invent and exploit any and all justification for their gun fetish.
Man up, boys. There's a big and beautiful world out there. Ditch the guns and join us!
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:34PM JST
@smithinjapan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Owners_of_America
"This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives."
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:39PM JST
@bruinfan
"Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Owners_of_America
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:42PM JST
I "usually" don't make up things, especially figures.
Yubaru at Aug. 06, 2012 - 01:45PM JST
I can not believe that someone would even think that this is true. Something like 450 people per year in the US die from falling out of bed
http://www.oddee.com/item_98002.aspx
There are over 12,000 gun related (murders) in the US yearly, add in the additional something like 15,000 plus per year suicides by firearms and you get a total of nearly 30,000 people PER YEAR.
Care to share what you were smoking when you wrote this?
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:02PM JST
WilliB
No but Sikh's are Indian (Asian) killed by a white guy.
Sikh rights groups have reported a rise in bias attacks since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.
Two of the dead are cops.
Utrack at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:39PM JST
Well, Officials Believe 'White Supremacist' Behind 'Domestic Terrorism'. The police and FBI think he was a skin head. The policeman who killed the guy was only 20 years old and received multiple gunshot wounds. He undergoing surgery, I hope he pulls through.
<http://news.yahoo.com/7-dead-sikh-temple-oak-creek-wis-officials-164104371--abc-news-topstories.html >
smithinjapan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:41PM JST
CrazyJoe: You do realize you quoted stats from gun-nutters, right? It's a Wiki-page, to be sure, but people write and post the info themselves, hence it is not an accurate source of information in many cases -- this being one.
I'm not suggesting you make up stats, I just think like many people in the US you are being misled, and buying into the lies of the likes of "gun owners of America".
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:55PM JST
Zichi:
No, Sikhs are people who join the Sikh religion. Yes, the majority is in India and Pakistan, but anybody can be Sikh. I had a snow-white professor from Norway at university who was a Sikh.
Go easy on your racist stereotypes, please.
CrazyJoe at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:57PM JST
@smithinjapan
Okay. I understand now.
smithinjapan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 02:58PM JST
WilliB: You do realize that 'race' has numerous definitions. I mean, I could argue with people that we are all one race -- the human race -- but unfortunately it has changed over time to mean nationality, a group of people (including religion, yes), and what not. Zichi is anything but racist.
WilliB at Aug. 06, 2012 - 04:09PM JST
smithjapan:
No. That is just an excuse to allow people to toss the "racist" label at any occasion in order to win arguments. No matter how narrowly or broadly you define "race". race is always something that is determined by birth. And that is why racism is so unjustified.
But a religion can never be a race, because because it is not biological. You can not change your "race" (no matter how you define it), but you can change your religion (even if in some religions, you´ll get killed for that.
And that is why Zichi`s comment is so misguided. Sikhs are not a "race". You can join Sikkhism, and you can leave Sikkhism.
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 04:17PM JST
WillB
If you are stating I'm some kind of racist then I deeply resent your mistaken remark. The Sikh religion is practiced by Indians and this attack aginst them was from a white skin head supremacist. The Sikh community had suffered a number of racial attacks since 9/11. In my book this is racial hatred because I doubt very much that the skin head even knew a single thing about Sikhs?
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 04:46PM JST
It's nice to see you so concerned about being PC, WilliB lol.
smithinjapan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:11PM JST
WilliB: "But a religion can never be a race, because because it is not biological."
Like it or not, one of the definitions of 'race' is: "people considered as a group". Granted, the general notion of 'race' refers to lineage, but it's not limited to that definition. The notion that 'race' is biological is ludicrous -- it is a social definition. Much as people here might beg to differ, being 'Japanese' is not biological. What's more, you can change your nationality by CHOICE, so you can therefore change your 'race', can't you?
That said, the attack does indeed seem to be 'racially' motivated, and it's the skinhead who attacked them that was 'misguided', not Zichi.
cracaphat at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:13PM JST
What another white man ? On a killing spree again ? I thought it was Groundhog's Day. Who woulda thought ?
Elbuda Mexicano at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:20PM JST
Another idiot fool on a rampage?? At least the police shot his ass dead! Bald, skin head white dude?? Sounds like an idiot Neo Nazi. Poor innocent Sikhs, RIP
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:30PM JST
WilliB
I accept that anyone can become a Sikh and there are some white Sikhs but the number is very small, and those attacked at this temple were Indian Sikhs.
Anyone can become a Jew, so does that mean the Jews are a religion and not a race?
But at least we can agree, at the end of the day, there's only one race, the human one.
Utrack at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:33PM JST
I just don't get how some folks just do not value life, this guy let the color of ones skin define his actions and in a negative way. He can't be to bright, cause he killed himself literally and figuritively. From my looking into the etimology of man's migration on this planet. I've read that the first caucazoid was 65% mongloid and 35% negroid. So he basically was killing his origin. He hates people who look different than him, no reason to kill though. I think my sister is a loon but I just say do you.
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:38PM JST
Now what was that argument that a certain JT poster used a few weeks back.... Oh thats right "if only some of the victims had been armed".....
Elbuda Mexicano
Actually sounds more like another former member of the US military that has gone off the rails.
zichi at Aug. 06, 2012 - 05:48PM JST
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2184038/Mass-shooting-Sikh-temple-At-seven-dead-dozens-injured-gunman-launches-killing-spree-hes-shot-dead-police.html#ixzz22knzM8mR
bruinfan at Aug. 06, 2012 - 06:12PM JST
@Crazyjoe
I didn't even make any statement towards gun control, only that if that statistic is true it bodes ill for the US having such "hidden potential crime" that is far above most other countries.
Elbuda Mexicano at Aug. 06, 2012 - 06:49PM JST
This is not the first time a Sikh has been killed in the USA, a months after 9/11, a poor sod with his turban and beard out in Arizona was mistaken by some idiot fool racist punk as an Arab, as a Muslim oh so the poor Sikh looks close enough to the Saudis who smashed the American Airline jets into the World Trade Center?? I guess close enough for an idiot racist who is fool of hate, kind of like the Anaheim police now. IMHO.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:13PM JST
"Actually sounds more like another former member of the US military that has gone off the rails."
Jumping the gun a bit aren't we cletus?
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:48PM JST
Madverts,
Why jumping the gun, it's widely reported he is a former military member. So no more jumping the gun than elbuda saying he was a neo nazi, and after all that's who my comment was too.
yasukuni at Aug. 06, 2012 - 07:57PM JST
Americans, face it. You have too many guns and too many people using them to kill people with.
According to Noliving ...
"To give you an idea of how rare it is to be murdered by a gun in the US more people die by rolling out of their bed in the US each year than are murdered by guns each year in the US."
Okay ...fix your beds too. But, I could probably live with knowing that grandpa died falling out of bed after a pleasant evening watching an old John Wayne movie, than knowing that he was mowed down by an assault rifle by the nice young quiet man down the road who was secretly plotting murder and mayhem and filling his room with a delightful assortment of weaponry he bought on the way to macdonalds.
Guys - time to wake up.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:01PM JST
"Why jumping the gun, it's widely reported he is a former military member"
Really? I've read several different sources, the most I can see being reported as fact is that he's in his 40's, has tattoos and has used one or more alias's in the past....
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just say you seem to be jumping the gun to blame the US military.
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:20PM JST
Madverts,
Do me a favor and go back and read my initial post. It was in response to elbuda claiming the guy is a neo nazi. Notice your not accusing him of jumping the gun, after all he came to his conclusion based on the fact the guy is bald white and has tatts.
I merely said maybe he is a former military member gone off the rails because it is being reported he is former military with 9/11 tatts. Legite question and no where have I blamed the military so maybe it's you jumping the gun about whatml have said.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:31PM JST
"Notice your not accusing him of jumping the gun"
I don't generally read his posts to be honest.
"Legite question and no where have I blamed the military"
Your quote has no question mark, so it's fair to say your making an accusation. I mean, it wouldn't be the first ;)
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 08:36PM JST
Could you point out where the military angle is being "widely reported" BTW?
Cletus at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:09PM JST
Madverts,
Sorry for forgetting to put a ? In my comment. But of course you are tending to focus on the poster rather than the story.
As for your question, type "former soldier goes on rampage" into google and you will find the articles mentioning the fact he was intact ex military and they are also now saying he was a white supremacisit. As l said maybe stick to the story rather than the poster.
Anyway lm done not going to comment anymore as you are doing your usual
TheQuestion at Aug. 06, 2012 - 09:43PM JST
Nope, they're both going to try a little harder to ignore the issue though.
Gun control just isn't going to happen in the US. Support for it has reached record lows in recent years so it would probably be best to focus on the killing and the killer rather than the tool of destruction.
On that note it sounds a lot like a skin-head that can't tell the difference between religions.
MeanRingo at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:55PM JST
Madverts, just so you don't go all nutty and start a shooting spree, I will once and for all say that this guy was a nutty former member of the US military. Not trying to jump to a conclusion, just going on what has been reported. So, to reiterate, here is yet another hate crime, perpetrated by yet another gun-totting American moron, who was yet another former member of the US military. See the combination? I am just astounded by the idiocy of the US right wing. How can they not see the problem they have with their guns? How can such a large group of people even find enough wool to pull over their eyes? Absolute idiots. Complete morons. If everyone with a gun in the US would just hold it to their own head and pull the trigger, perhaps that would solve the problem.
In any event, I am glad that at least I can see why the US is on such a downward spiral. Not that my understanding of this simple idea has any impact on the situation, but at least I know I am sane.
MrExpatriate at Aug. 06, 2012 - 10:55PM JST
I am in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and it is such a somber mood. Satwant Kaleka (the president of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin) is the father of one of my high school teachers, and he was shot trying to tackle the gunman. Sadly, I saw on his son's FB that Satwant died of his injuries late last night. What a terrible feeling this all is.
The crazy thing is that none of the Sikhs I've seen and talked to are angry. They are just sad and confused as to why it happened. I think that is a testament to the peace-loving nature of their religion. I went to the vigil in downtown Milwaukee last night, and it was beautiful. There was not an ounce of hate was exhibited, and all of the Sikhs present just asked for the understanding and acceptance of their religion. They also were very grateful of the overwhelming support that everyone has shown them during such a difficult time, and it goes to show that the power of peace and love can and will triumph over evil.
Photos of the vigil can be viewed on Facebook here:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.568210400779.2034707.113800636&type=3
MrExpatriate at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:04PM JST
Sorry for the double post, but here's a YouTube link showing a segment of the vigil as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuo5f4vSLF0&sns=tw
The man speaking at the start and end of the video sum up the mood and mentality of the Sikhs present.
Madverts at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:41PM JST
"Sorry for forgetting to put a ? In my comment. But of course you are tending to focus on the poster rather than the story. As for your question, type "former soldier goes on rampage" into google and you will find the articles mentioning the fact he was intact ex military and they are also now saying he was a white supremacisit. As l said maybe stick to the story rather than the poster."
When I asked you to clarify hours ago not one major news source was carrying that information.
"Anyway lm done not going to comment anymore as you are doing your usual"
Sure, pick up your ball and go home then :)
serendipitous at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:56PM JST
I recently read about a town in the south of the US where it has been mandatory to own a gun since the early 1990s! Classic! Maybe the US should go that way. Shoots outs on the way home, on the bus, at work and school on a daily basis would lead to an almost natural population cull. Is that the answer?
serendipitous at Aug. 06, 2012 - 11:59PM JST
The town's name is Kennesaw in Georgia and the law making it mandatory to own a gun was actually passed in 1982! Democracy at its best!
Cletus at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:02AM JST
Madverts,
Lol you asked me exactly 3 hrs 23 minutes ago yet CNN have been running that head line for 7 hrs, the Herald Sun in Melbourne have been running it for over 10 hrs and the nine news at 6 pm had the story. Now there are three major news outlets right there apology accepted.
So will u be man enough to admit your personal attack on me was wrong? I'm thinking u won't hence enough said
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:05AM JST
No major source was reporting that earlier that's why I asked you to clarify, and I even stated "I'm not saying it's impossible", so I'm not sure as to why you're getting into such a state or talking about personal attacks?
Moderator at Aug. 07, 2012 - 05:06AM JST
Readers, please keep the discussion civil.
MeanRingo at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:09AM JST
Madvert, fine, dislike my rant. Give it a thumbs down even. But take off your blinders and own up to the problems that led to this idiocy.
Sydney 'Taylor' Miller at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:09AM JST
I would like to know if the shooter obtained them legally or illegally. If they were obtained illegally then making gun laws more strict may do more harm then good because honest citizens cannot protect themselves. Criminals rarely use legally purchased guns. There is a underground market for everything. However, if they were obtained legally like the Colorado shooter, then I would say enforce the gun laws. I do not believe they should add laws making it more difficult to obtain a firearm because that will do more harm than good as well. Unless these killers had severe obvious cases of mental illness, it's nearly impossible to pin point threats. And it's not easy adding to gun laws in fear of violating our "right to bare arms".
Ben Jack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:21AM JST
Some people are getting hung up on the word racist meaning solely aimed at a race when it can also mean being aimed at a culture or ethnicity. If the attack was targeting Sikhs or another culture or ethnicity specifically, I think this easily can be termed a racist hate crime.
Cletus at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:24AM JST
Madverts
Ah so your not personally attacking me hey? Ah well
Funny both CNN and Fox were running it 7 hours ago. But l guess its my fault you were not up to date with the news hence l was jumping the gun I.e. was more up to date than you sorry bout that Madverts
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:25AM JST
". If the attack was targeting Sikhs or another culture or ethnicity specifically, I think this easily can be termed a racist hate crime."
I think the appellation is going to get more complicated as I'm sure this was a case of mistaken err...race?
An erroneous racist hate crime?
Ben Jack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:31AM JST
I might be mistaken myself, but I think I remember reading about hate crimes against Sikhs after 9/11 when some racist morons mistook them for Muslims, which still would have been hate crimes anyway. It is entirely possible that this moron followed the same path.
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:33AM JST
Cletus,
"Ah so your not personally attacking me hey?"
I asked you a question, please try to calm down. You're not seriously going to deny your past of rants against the US military are ye?
"Funny both CNN and Fox were running it 7 hours ago"
I have no reason to lie to you, I've said from the outset "I'm not saying it's impossible". In fact, I even rechecked CNN and the Beeb articles on the shooting before posting to you.
Moderator at Aug. 07, 2012 - 05:09AM JST
Readers, please stop bickering.
Vernie Jefferies at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:34AM JST
Oh what an idiot.... he attacked a peaceful religious organization. Probably assumed that it was a Muslim church. He will definitely receive some bad news in hell.
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:35AM JST
"I might be mistaken myself, but I think I remember reading about hate crimes against Sikhs after 9/11 "
Yeah I think the Americans just executed a nut that went into a gas station for some 9/11 revenge and shot the owner who was Sikh.
Ben Jack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:40AM JST
Madverts,
Didn't hear about that one. This could certainly be a similar case.
Madverts at Aug. 07, 2012 - 12:44AM JST
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/sikhs-bias-crimes/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+(RSS%3A+Top+Stories)
He was the first of many apparently. Unbelievable but Sikh's have had over 700 attacks logged by the Sikh Coalition.
LH10 at Aug. 07, 2012 - 02:45AM JST
there were 4 shooters not 1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playerembedded&v=9ecdSKi9fs
and this was a false flag (batman shooting also false flag) there is no such thing of terrorist groups going out to get you all the time. all hysteria. the gov is out to control us lol
LH10 at Aug. 07, 2012 - 02:46AM JST
k didnt work, so search: TEMPLE SHOOTING _"4 SHOOTERS" _Milwaukee on youtube
globalwatcher at Aug. 07, 2012 - 06:38AM JST
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/08/05/oak_creek_sikh_temple_shooting_in_wisconsin.html?from=rss/&wpisrc=newsletter_slatest
The Southern Poverty Law Center is well recognized and respected orgnization and the information is pretty right on target.
There are still too many white supremacists who are maintaining low profiles, politically active associating with NRA mixing well among us, and are fargetting minorities, blacks and immigrants. They hate these groups and want to kill. Their ideology is very similar to the KKK and very dangerous.
Utrack at Aug. 07, 2012 - 07:01AM JST
LH10
Dang, There were 4 shooters. I googled it and Gesh man it could have been alot worse with 4 gunmen inside that Temple. This sucks.
SenseNotSoCommon at Aug. 07, 2012 - 09:34AM JST
So, this week's social inadequate who got to live out his homicidal fantasies is a neo-Nazi lone wolf. Quelle surprise. Of course the Evil Death Cult will be quick to disown their prodigal son, and invent anti-gun conspiracies ('false flag' drivel).
We have seen the very swift 'othering' of the culprit as a 'terrorist', albeit one with a public profile as a white supremacist, despite which he was allowed to purchase, possess and deploy to deadly effect, a firearm.
American society cannot continue abdicating its responsibility through the political expedient of labeling (as disturbed, terrorist or whatever) those American citizens emboldened to pursue their gun fetish to its logical conclusion.
globalwatcher at Aug. 07, 2012 - 10:15AM JST
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map
The weblink listed above is a report of HATE crime map in USA released by the Southern Poverty Law Center. I believe a famous speech by MLK "We will overcome" is far from the truth. Americans have to unite and continue educating our kids our core principals all over again : Liberty, Equality and Justice for ALL . Currently thee are over 1000 white supremacist groups existed in US.
Noliving at Aug. 07, 2012 - 09:17PM JST
Yes I will, yes you are correct and I am wrong. On a different thread(Aurora shooting) we, someone other than you and me, were discussing the number of people that are murdered by military style semi-automatic rifles, they make up less than 1% of all gun crime. For whatever reason that statistic came into my head and I was thinking all homicides. If you go through my previous posts on a different thread you will see where I state that stat that more people die by falling out of their beds than are killed by military style semi-automatic rifles. Although an interesting fact is that more people fall to their deaths in the US than are murdered by guns in the US. I believe it is around 15,000-19,000 people fall to their deaths each year in the US.
According to the FBI the yearly gun related murders are 10,000 or less for the past several years not 12,000.
The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) yields a more conservative estimate, approximately 100,000 defensive gun uses (DGU) each year. So that gives us a range of 100,000 to 2.5 million. The 2.5 million comes from the book Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control by Gary Kleck.
Does that mean using quoted stats from anti-gun people like Brady campaign are not an accurate source of information in many cases?
Ironic sarcasm considering it was another armed individual that stopped this person from doing more harm.
Noliving at Aug. 07, 2012 - 11:37PM JST
Well one global watcher what is an Assault Weapon? Define it, because it is a made up term by the Brady Campaign to demonize firearms. Two no "assault weapon" was used in this crime. So how would your political action have stopped this?
Also the guns that are claimed to be "assault weapons" are used in less than 1% of all gun crimes. So why do you campaign against them when they are used so rarely?
WilliB at Aug. 08, 2012 - 01:02AM JST
Ben Jack:
Not only possible, but quite likely. This moron would probably not know the difference between Sikkhism, Islam, or Buddhism, if a peace of the Bahmiyam Buddha fell on his head.
The sad irony is that Sikhs, who practise an truly noble religion, are routinely on the receiving end of violence in muslim countries. While muslims, of course, are never harrassed by Sikhs. And this idiot goes and picks Sikhs as target.
What bottomless stupidity.
Kuya 808 at Aug. 11, 2012 - 07:12AM JST
Serendipitous, I know I’m coming a little late to this discussion but when I saw you mention Kennesaw GA I just had to chime in.
I don’t know if you remember it first hand, but the law in Kennesaw was passed as a reaction to a law that was passed in Morton Grove Illinois the same year that banned the ownership of hand guns for every citizen except law enforcement and active duty armed forces personnel.
At the time there was quite a lot of press about it and a lot of prophecies about the “blood bath” that was in the wings. But then it got pretty quiet. It seems that the dire predictions just didn’t pan out and in fact the results were quite different than what was expected.
Prior to passing it’s total hand gun ban, Morton Grove; a predominantly white suburban community, enjoyed a crime rate significantly below the national and Illinois state average. Immediately after the law went into effect there was a dramatic 15% increase in violent crime. Those rates have remained fairly steady since then. There is no statistical evidence that the gun ban had any positive effect.
On the other hand, prior to passing it’s mandatory firearm ownership law Kennesaw reported a higher than average crime rate. Kennesaw also had a higher percentage of minority groups that have some of the highest crime statistics in America. Yet in the year following the passage of their law Kennesaw experienced a 74% decrease in crimes against individuals and an additional 45% decrease in the year after that. In the sixteen years following passage of this law there were a total of 3 homicides in Kennesaw; 2 by knives and one by firearm. The firearm related death occurred in a Motel and involved visitors to the town, not residents. All crime figures in Kennesaw have decreased in the ensuing years and are below the national and regional averages.
The only way to get an idea about the effectiveness of a law is to look at the measurable results. If you are trying to make a case for crime reduction through banning private ownership of firearms I don’t think Kennesaw Georgia, or Morton Grove Illinois for that matter are good places to start.