8.5 tons of radioactive water leak from Fukushima plant

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  • 6

    yanee

    no...no...no...its stable! this has been reported for months! this must be a lie! LMAO!

  • 18

    Farmboy

    after a pipe connected to the reactor dropped off

    Not enough duct tape.

  • 2

    Utrack

    Tokyo Electric Power Co said the leak occurred in the No. 4 reactor after a pipe connected to the reactor dropped off, the news agency reported.

    How does a pipe drop off?? The is said to be a 9mm diameter pipe that dropped off and the gush was radioactive water 35,500 Bq/L. The way kyodonews reads it's water from the spent fuel rods pool and it's in the basement of reactor 4. That is 301,750,000 Bq in 8.5 tons of water gushing from reactor 4. Fukushima-diary has the story too.

  • 4

    namabiru4me

    How long is Japan going to let incompetent nincompoops run and regulate this?

  • 4

    YongYang

    Right from the beginning.... ad-hoc, dead ending solutions are never going to solve the catastrophe.

  • 2

    SquidBert

    Tokyo Electric Power Co said the leak occurred in the No. 4 reactor after a pipe connected to the reactor dropped off,

    That does not sound like something that is supposed to happen in a nuclear power plant, now does it? Anyway, all is safe, all is well, nothing to see here, move along folks and don't listen to any harmful rumors.

  • 8

    Dennis Bauer

    so does that mayor retract his comment from yesterday?

  • 8

    Kapuna

    How does a pipe just "drop off"? There has to be more to this, than is being printed.

  • 2

    Utrack

    TEPCO wants to remove the spent fuel rods from reactor 4. But the pool for common use is full ( I'm reading a tweet from one of the workers there it's posted on Fukushima-diary) so their talking about removing some spent fuel rods from the common use pool and putting them somewhere else.

  • 8

    Farmboy

    Clearly this is employee error. There it was on BillyBob's to-do list for Monday:

    Check for explosions. Check to see if any pipes have dropped off. Refill toilet paper. Empty trash.
  • 2

    Elvensilvan

    Even if the water didn't get out of the reactor building, what's TEPCO planning to do with it? How to dispose of the 8.5 tons of radioactive water?

    As with the frozen flanges several days ago, this just shows how TEPCO hotfixed the cooling systems problem, and didn't even bother to reinforce or replace with standard equipment.

    Blunder after blunder ... how long should the people continue to suffer?

  • 4

    MaboDofuIsSpicy

    They must use better super glue next time .

  • 2

    tmarie

    But, I thought it was stable??? How does this happen? Snicker.

    I question this. Was it "leaked" or will TEPCO let it out and into the ocean because they know they can? They haven't been fined or told to stop doing this crap so why not carry on and pretend it is out of their control?

  • 6

    zichi

    I thought the problem was a valve not a pipe? Damaged by the earthquakes even though TEPCO denied any earthquake damage?

    A 9mm disconnected from a flange or gland as shown in the photo.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X9giv_Bmikc/TymE50U7spI/AAAAAAAADA8/So2_Kl1m6Cs/s1600/fukushimareactor4SFPleakJan2012.JPG

  • 5

    Darren Brannan

    well at Fuku-ichi, the water filtration system at the very least, IS jerry-rigged and reinforced with duct tape. The workers use duct tape to seal their clothes too...so yeah I guess pipes do drop off.

  • 0

    Utrack

    It sounds like the workers are going through hell. They have had to fix the crane for the common use pool and fix other facilities and power source. What is a dry cask for Preserving spent fuel rods.

  • 0

    Patric Spohn

    Probably more like 8,500 tons of waste. No source :)

  • 3

    jforce

    Even if they stopped any of the water from getting out of the plant - BS - it's only a matter of time before another leak pops up. All that water that got into the food chain "weeks and months" (why say it like that anyway!?) after the disaster is all better now? This is not over, and it only gets worse.

  • 4

    zichi

    The event happened to No4 reactor but the post photo shows No3 reactor?

  • 5

    zichi

    The reactor stress tests required by the government, and this week reviewed by IAEA inspectors does not include any lessons learnt from the nuclear disaster, according to two government advisers. The stress tests ignore the potential for two disasters to occur at the same time. The tests don't take into account the age of the plants. The reactors at Fukushima are 40-years old or coming up to 40 years.

  • 2

    Weasel

    ...but it had not flowed outside the reactor building, Kyodo News said Wednesday, quoting the plant’s operator.

    Two equally trustworthy sources of information. A lie from a lie is now the truth!

  • 2

    cactusJack

    The reactor is as stable as a blind fat man on crutches.

  • 0

    Ivan Coughanoffalot

    A pipe dropped off? If this happened on my car, I'd be worried. If it happens on a nuclear reactor, we're supposed to remain calm? The mishandling of this crisis is incredible. We're lucky we made it this far without mushroom clouds nationwide.

  • 1

    Farmboy

    From Mainichi, "According to the utility known as TEPCO, about 6 liters of water were found to have leaked onto the floor of the No. 4 unit building at 10:30 p.m. Tuesday. The leak was stopped at 10:43 p.m. by closing a valve, officials said."

    So .... 1. evidently the estimate of water went from 6 liters to 8.5 tons 2. We are expected to believe that 8.5 tons of water can leak out of the pipe in zichi's picture in ten minutes. 3. Tepco is saying the problem is related to cold weather (or to previous explosions), but in zichi's picture, a pipe is shown out of its connector in an upward direction. If a freezing water line were the cause, wouldn't the pipe be split lengthwise?

    Something isn't right...

  • 0

    BurakuminDes

    That TEPCO mob are so incompetent, you wouldn't feed them.

  • 1

    The Munya Times

    Tepco soon or later should employ competent experts who can do the job, give them all the costly high tech protective gears and tools, pay them generously, instead of using the ignorant and incapable poor, the homeless cheap slaves, before they kill all Japan.

    Unfortunately, as I said before, the course of becoming a human is very slow.

  • 3

    wanderlust

    The photo of the alleged leaking valve shows a piece of pipe totally outside of the valve mechanism; it appears that either the end of the pipe has sheared off, or they did not allow enough pipe length when they assembled the joint.

    It is not a leaking valve, it is a broken pipe!

  • -3

    j4p4nFTW

    Everything is fine. This is just a little bit of water leaking from a broken pipe. This sort of thing happens with plumbing all the time. Luckily we have the best engineers in the world to fix the problem and ensure that none of the water seeps outside the plant.

  • 5

    zichi

    TEPCO will move the spent fuel from reactor No4 spent fuel pool (SFP) first, which contains 1300 fuel assemblies. The reactor was closed down Dec.2010 for refuelling so the spent fuel removed from the reactor vessel is still "very hot" and would normally have stayed in the SFP until it could be moved to the common pool in another building. The spent pool also contains the new fuel which would have been placed in the reactor vessel.

    TEPCO stated at the time of the disaster, No4 reactor was empty but I think it could have had new fuel inside the reactor.

    The common pool is also full of spent fuel. From there, the spent fuel would be put in dry casks and stored in a warehouse down on the docks. That too is full so TEPCO must build a new cask storage building. The overhead crane on the common pool was badly damaged by the 3/11 earthquake and needs to be replaced before any spent fuel can be removed.

    So there's something of a "traffic jam!"

    After 40 years there are more than 500,000 fuel rods at the plant.

    The government had told TEPCO to remove all spent fuel within 2 years but I think it will take much longer than that. The nuclear disaster minister, Goshi Hosono, this week told the power companies to stop using the system of spent fuel pools inside reactor buildings and come up with a safer method of storage like dry casks.

    The No4 SFP is probably in the best condition when compared with 1-3 SFP's. The No3 SFP was very badly damaged by the explosions and infra-red photo's have shown fuel rods in the debris.

  • 3

    zichi

    Prior to removing the spent fuel from reactor No4, late last year, TEPCO started to remove the debris with remote control cranes and debris cutters, I suppose the pipe could have loosen by all the banging about of the equipment? I think the No4 reactor building will be the next one to have the temporary outer structure, like they did with No1 reactor building.

  • 0

    Utrack

    Zichi what are they going to do about a dry cask storage building. The TEPCO workers tweet I had read said they have not even started building a storage facility as yet and they need one right now.

  • 0

    Utrack

    Yup, reactor 4 is getting a cover so they can remove the spent fuel rods.

  • 3

    zichi

    Utrack,

    I suppose TEPCO have a couple of options. Build another temporary structure to store the dry casks or convert one of the many existing buildings at the plant. The storage of dry casks does not require any kind of special equipment. They could even be stored outside.

    Prior to the 3/11 the spent fuel from the reactor SFP's was moved by a small rail system as was the spent fuel dry casks from the common pool building to the storage on the docks. I guess that system no longer work?

  • 0

    Utrack

    Zichi, You are right they just need to use a air tight, concrete building. I was freaking out and I'm not even there.

  • 5

    zichi

    Pity those great engineers weren't available when the NPP leaked 100,000 tons of highly radioactive waste water into the ocean causing the biggest marine nuclear disaster in history?

  • 2

    Blair Herron

    Everything is fine. This is just a little bit of water leaking from a broken pipe. This sort of thing happens with plumbing all the time.

    You sound exactly the same as TEPCO.

    Tepco found 158 mistakes in the stress test report sent to NISA for Kashiwazaki Kariwa units 1 to 7. The utility is claiming however, they are simple mistakes and should have any consequences on the report's conclusions. (Mainichi)

    http://enformable.com/2012/02/tepco-finds-158-errors-in-stress-test-submitted-to-nisa-for-kashiwazaki-kariwa/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=tepco-finds-158-errors-in-stress-test-submitted-to-nisa-for-kashiwazaki-kariwa

    I don't understand this report. What does "mistakes" mean here? They failed the stress test, but there's nothing to worry about???

  • 0

    Farmboy

    it appears that either the end of the pipe has sheared off, or they did not allow enough pipe length when they assembled the joint.

    Well, I don't think so. That's a compression fitting. The pipe should fit snugly into it until it bottoms, and then the fitting should be tightened. It should look exactly like the one next to it, and my guess it that it once did. Once the pipe is seated and the fitting tightened, it should stay put unless it is hit with a forklift, so it's myterious how it got into its present state.

  • 2

    zichi

    Utrack,

    with very high levels of radiation near, and inside the reactor buildings 1-4, it would be impossible to build an air tight concrete structure to cover the damaged reactors. That would require workers.

    Even with the temporary structure put over reactor building No1, first it was designed like lego pieces off site. It was erected using 2 remote control cranes and 5 remote control electric fans to gently blow each panel into the right position to lock it into place. That was quite some achievement!

  • 0

    Utrack

    No, I meant an airtight concrete building to store the dry casks in.

  • 2

    zichi

    This is part of the original plant.

  • 0

    Utrack

    Yeah, They should have a building on site or near by I hope because they have to remove like 1300 fuel rods. I don't know how many dry casks that would be but I hope there is a building for it on site.

  • 0

    Utrack

    I wonder how are they going to clean the 8.5 ton of Fuku Punch out of the basement of reactor 4. I hope it doesn't leak into the sea like part of the 220 ton of highly radioactive water did.

  • 3

    zichi

    The leaked water contained 35,500 becquerels per litre or for 8.5 tons, 301,750,000 becquerels of radiation.

  • 3

    Cletus

    j4p4nFTW

    Everything is fine.

    I wouldnt say everything is fine l would have said business as usual when it comes to the imbeciles at Fukushima.

    This is just a little bit of water leaking from a broken pipe. This sort of thing happens with plumbing all the time.

    Yes broken pipes do happen, especially when they are constructed poorly or dont have maintenance routinely performed on them. Which is again no great surprise when we are talking about the company that bought the world one of its worse nuclear accidents in history. But its a bit of a worry a leaking pipe in your house is one thing and you might have a couple of hundred litres (worse case) but 8.5 tons is another thing especially 8.5 tons of radioactive water. But of course the TEPCO brains trust will say the leak was contained to the plant this is the same mob that caused this disaster and have played it down ever since. In a week or two we will have a bow and a many sollies as usual that the water escaped but they deeply regret and it will not happen again.

    Luckily we have the best engineers in the world to fix the problem and ensure that none of the water seeps outside the plant.

    Thanks for the laugh, if you have the best engineers then l would hate to see the worst.

  • 1

    zichi

    Utrack,

    eventually TEPCO has to move 600,000 fuel rods.

  • 0

    Blair Herron

    Radiation was scattered over a large area and made its way into the oceans, air and food chain in the weeks and months after the disaster.

    the NPP leaked 100,000 tons of highly radioactive waste water into the ocean causing the biggest marine nuclear disaster in history?

    I have been wondering if any countries have sued Japan or TEPCO. If none of them have sued, why?

    • Moderator

      Back on topic please.

  • 0

    Utrack

    Good Gravy, 600,000 is alot. TEPCO has to start some serious construction.

  • 1

    zichi

    Utrack,

    each fuel rod is about 1/2" in diameter and 12 feet in length. 400 and something, (435?) of these rods make up one fuel rod assembly. If I remember correctly each reactor would have about 60 fuel rod assembles, or about 25,000 fuel rods.

    Fukushima NPP is one of the oldest with a massive amount of spent fuel.

  • -1

    buggerme

    G,day. I think at times some of you guys expect a bit much, I mean anyone with experience around large machinery knows that things go wrong even under perfect conditions. No one plans for these kind of things and even if you did, it wouldn't work they way you expected it or wanted it to. Even if the pipe was broken by human error it's not surprising under those kinds of stresses and conditions, anything can happen on a work site. There's just no way you can check every pipe or fitting in that situation and even if you did, it might look alright and then the next day break on you, like it or not it happens. It's not as if you can nick off down to the hardware shop and buy an off the shelf part and whack it on that afternoon. Personally, I wouldn't enjoy working under those kind of conditions or expectations.

  • 0

    Utrack

    Thanks Zichi, I was just looking at photos of the spent fuel assemblies that have been placed into a dry cask an surrounded by inert gas. Bundles of used fuel assemblies can go into a dry cask.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    Didn't flow outside the reactor building, huh? So where is it, then? Yep, the plant's stable... no more worries. Come on back home, everyone!

  • 0

    Utrack

    TEPCO says the radioactive water went into the basement of reactor 4. I hope it's not leaking out anywhere.

  • -1

    LH10

    i'm really tired of seeing news from tepco and fukushima. everyone knows that the prob isn't fixed, there's no way to fix this anymore. we just gotta continue living life til we die. RIP U_U

  • 0

    Elvensilvan

    One thing that's bothering me is: even in the basement, isn't there any drainage system in the facility?

    If there is one, would the water be collected, or does it flow to the ocean?

  • 1

    kurisupisu

    It is going to be years before these areas are under control;in the meantime, we should accept more leaks , debris incineration and forced pleas to 'bear the pain' whilst consumIng increasingly radioactive material?

  • 0

    viking68

    In case everyone missed the latest NRC risk study:

    The study found there was "essentially zero risk" to the public of early fatalities due to radiation exposure following a severe accident. The long-term risk of dying from cancer due to radiation exposure after an accident was less than one in a billion and less than the U.S. average risk of dying from other causes of cancer, which is about two in one thousand.

    The study doesn't mention the risk of a third-eye popping out of a fishes head ala the Simpsons.

  • 0

    Nessie

    A ton here and a ton there and pretty soon you're talking about real leakage.

  • -1

    Nicky Washida

    How long is Japan going to let incompetent nincompoops run and regulate this?

    Probably for around as long as incompetent nincompoops run and regulate Japan.

  • 1

    zichi

    TEPCO has storage for 150,000 tons of waste water which is at about 120,000 tons and increasing at 500 tons per day. TEPCO have stated that by the spring it will run out of storage. Then what?

  • 1

    Cletus

    zichi

    TEPCO has storage for 150,000 tons of waste water which is at about 120,000 tons and increasing at 500 tons per day. TEPCO have stated that by the spring it will run out of storage. Then what?

    Thats an easy one Zichi, they will either "lose" the water or spring a leak or suddenly the holding tanks will mysteriously develop several hundred tons more room as they did many months ago. Hey at the end of the day it only costs them a bow and a sorry and its finished with.

  • 0

    nandakandamanda

    Every large aftershock brings the same comments from Tepco. No damage found. This pipe looks as though it could have been pulled out of the joint or sheared off with constant jolting, especially if it was already under stress when first installed.

    PS Blair Herron. The Mainichi English report sounds as though it may have been wrongly translated. Stress tests on reactors 1 and 7, not on reactors 1~7. http://mainichi.jp/select/jiken/news/20120202k0000m040080000c.html Quote: 東電は1日、先月に経済産業省原子力安全・保安院へ提出した柏崎刈羽原発1、7号機の安全評価(ストレステスト)

  • 0

    Blair Herron

    nandakandamanda,

    Thank you. You are correct.

    No.1 & No.7. The rest seems to be the correct translation.

    I found out what those mistakes are like:

    They wrote "pump the water from electric source" instead of "water source"...

    And someone says the best engineer in the world?

    They cannot even write right.

    http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20120201-OYT1T01001.htm

  • 3

    zichi

    LH10,

    the truth is we don't get enough real news from TEPCO/Fukushima NPP/Nuclear Disaster/Food Contamination/Decon/

    These days the Japanese media just feed us tidbits.....

  • 1

    FullM3taL

    Oh come on! Hasn't TEPCO already made enough laughing stock out of themselves?

  • 0

    whiskeysour

    direct to drinking water people want that glowing feeling

  • -1

    Star-viking

    zichi Feb. 02, 2012 - 09:39AM JST

    I thought the problem was a valve not a pipe? Damaged by the earthquakes even though TEPCO denied any earthquake damage?

    What proof do you have that is is earthquake damage? The problem could be caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration, resonance, or even inadvertent physical damage. Plumbing causes problems all over the world, with or without earthquakes and tsunamis - else plumbers would be out of business.

  • 4

    zichi

    Star-viking,

    What proof do you have that is is earthquake damage? The problem could be caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration, resonance, or even inadvertent physical damage. Plumbing causes problems all over the world, with or without earthquakes and tsunamis - else plumbers would be out of business.

    Nuclear reactors are designed by nuclear scientists, built and maintained by nuclear engineers. Every piece of equipment inside a nuclear reactor is a vital piece of plant.

    One of the most vital parts, is the supply of coolant to the reactor and the spend fuel pool, without which there could be a serious nuclear event. The pipe which became loose, supplies coolant to the jet system inside the reactor vessel.

    The reactor was closed down in Dec.2010 for refuelling. When this is happening the spent fuel pool and the pool above the reactor becomes one by opening a gate between the two.

    The leaked water came from the spent fuel pool and the pool above the reactor. Reducing the level of coolant which if not discovered on time could have led to another meltdown and even fire.

    After 3/11, TEPCO stated the reactor was in shut down but the reactor vessel probably already had the new fuel assemblies inside the reactor vessel since the normal shut down period is about 4 months. The reactor would have been due to restart in April.

    The SFP contains the highest number of spent fuel out of all the pools. 1300 fuel assemblies, that's hundreds of thousands of fuel rods. It contained the "very hot fuel" removed when the fuel was removed from the reactor and the "very hot" new fuel.

    There's no "plumbing" inside any reactor nor are there any plumbers who maintain them.

    A nuclear reactor isn't some kind of leaking boiler in someone's kitchen when any leaks can be mopped up with a couple of old towels. The leak from the reactor is highly reactive.

    I did state in another comment that may be the pipe also became loose from using cranes and debris cutters to remove all the debris ahead of removing the spent fuel from the reactor.

    You state that the loose pipe might have been caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration. This should never happen in any nuclear reactor which is why they should only be built, maintained and updated to the highest safety standards. The life cycle of a reactor should be limited to 30 years. Most of the reactors at Fukushima are 40-years old or coming up to 40-years.

    Following the explosions last year, I was shocked when I saw photo's. There was extensive rust and corrosion on the plant and the building structure, probably from the sea air and lack of maintenance.

    TEPCO's reactors at its plant in Niigata failed the recent stress tests, on more than 100 different pieces of plant.

    The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency will require electric power companies to undertake 30 measures at their nuclear plants, including extensive work on piping and ventilation systems, according to an interim report.

  • 0

    VicMOsaka

    A cubic metre of water weighs one tonne so 8.5 tonnes it is not a lot when spread out on the floor.

  • 1

    SquidBert

    @Star-Viking

    What proof do you have that is is earthquake damage? The problem could be caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration, resonance, or even inadvertent physical damage. Plumbing causes problems all over the world, with or without earthquakes and tsunamis - else plumbers would be out of business.

    I am glad you finally admit that Nuclear Power Plants are unsafe with or without earth quakes. All the things you mention should be accounted for during design, construction , maintenance and operation. But as we see now these things fail .

  • 1

    SquidBert

    A cubic metre of water weighs one tonne so 8.5 tonnes it is not a lot when spread out on the floor.

    Well it is 8.5cm of highly radioactive water on the floor of 100m2 house. I think in most houses, that would qualify as a mess.

  • 0

    VicMOsaka

    SquidBertFeb. 03, 2012 - 09:47AM JST A cubic metre of water weighs one tonne so 8.5 tonnes it is not a lot when spread out on the floor. Well it is 8.5cm of highly radioactive water on the floor of 100m2 house. I think in most houses, that would qualify as a mess.

    Except it isn't in a house.

  • 1

    SquidBert

    Except it isn't in a house.

    I know, I was just trying to help people visualize the amount. I have seen what a broken 2000litre aquarium can do to a house. And it is a fair amount of water when it is on the floor, that's all I am saying.

  • 0

    nandakandamanda

    Well, it's not in a house, no, but it is in the basement of the house/building that houses the reactor, containment vessel and used fuel pool.

    Star-viking, zichi simply posed the possibility of quake damage and asked whether it might not be a cause. He didn't make a blanket statement, so no proof should be necessary.

    You mention vibration or resonance. Yes, I agree these might be possible, but with thousands of strong aftershocks rocking and rolling the place, why do you discount the idea that quakes might be a contributing factor? Personally I would consider quakes being an obvious primary reason before any vibration or resonance.

    TEPCO is mortally afraid of the possibility, even the breath of a rumor, that Fukushima NP might have been damaged by the quake BEFORE the tsunami. The reactors are all earthquake-proof, but a tsunami that large was beyond the realms. Is this an extension of that fear? All of the leaks since the end of January can be accounted for by freezing joints, but with this leak they are maintaining that they cannot find plausible cause. Sabotage?

  • -1

    Star-viking

    zichiFeb. 03, 2012 - 12:57AM JST

    "What proof do you have that is is earthquake damage? The problem could be caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration, resonance, or even inadvertent physical damage. Plumbing causes problems all over the world, with or without earthquakes and tsunamis - else plumbers would be out of business."

    There's no "plumbing" inside any reactor nor are there any plumbers who maintain them.

    Please, you are being pedantic - it is very common for engineers to refer to pipes that carry water or gas in a facility as 'plumbing'. The link in your post of Feb. 02, 2012 - 09:39AM JST shows pipes and valves - plumbing in general terms - what would you call them?

    A nuclear reactor isn't some kind of leaking boiler in someone's kitchen when any leaks can be mopped up with a couple of old towels. The leak from the reactor is highly reactive.

    Did I say it was not? I was just pointing out that you cannot say that that damage was caused by an earthquake.

    You state that the loose pipe might have been caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration. This should never happen in any nuclear reactor which is why they should only be built, maintained and updated to the highest safety standards. The life cycle of a reactor should be limited to 30 years. Most of the reactors at Fukushima are 40-years old or coming up to 40-years.

    We are dealing with a reactor that got pounded by a tsunami and inundated by water, lack of maintenance, corrosion, and vibrations causing resonances in the pipework whilst regrettable are understandable. Lots of areas of the plant are not safe to enter, after all. Yes reactors should be built to the highest safety standards - but standards should focus on what risks a possible accident could cause - and as we have seen this pipe problem has been contained.

    TEPCO's reactors at its plant in Niigata failed the recent stress tests, on more than 100 different pieces of plant.

    That would indicate the stress tests are achieving their goal.

  • -1

    Star-viking

    SquidBertFeb. 03, 2012 - 09:36AM JST

    @Star-Viking

    "What proof do you have that is is earthquake damage? The problem could be caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration, resonance, or even inadvertent physical damage. Plumbing causes problems all over the world, with or without earthquakes and tsunamis - else plumbers would be out of business."

    I am glad you finally admit that Nuclear Power Plants are unsafe with or without earth quakes. All the things you mention should be accounted for during design, construction , maintenance and operation. But as we see now these things fail .

    With or without earthquakes? I'm referring to the tsunami-bashed Fukushima Dai-ichi here, not any other plants.

  • -1

    Star-viking

    nandakandamandaFeb. 03, 2012 - 12:45PM JST

    Star-viking, zichi simply posed the possibility of quake damage and asked whether it might not be a cause. He didn't make a blanket statement, so no proof should be necessary.

    Zichi said: "I thought the problem was a valve not a pipe? Damaged by the earthquakes even though TEPCO denied any earthquake damage?"

    As you can see the second sentence is a statement of fact. Zichi would have needed to add a "Possibly" to the start of the second sentence to be posing a possibility.

    You mention vibration or resonance. Yes, I agree these might be possible, but with thousands of strong aftershocks rocking and rolling the place, why do you discount the idea that quakes might be a contributing factor? Personally I would consider quakes being an obvious primary reason before any vibration or resonance.

    I don't discount earthquakes - I was adding a list of possibilities to (what seems to me) Zichi's statement of fact that earthquakes were responsible. As to the likelyhood of one form of damage being the root cause of any one problem, we have to consider the use of jury-rigged systems in an area that suffered physical damage from a tsunami and inundation with sea water. I really couldn't make an assessment on that, it would need feet on the ground and lots of analysis - and that applies to all us JT Posters.

    TEPCO is mortally afraid of the possibility, even the breath of a rumor, that Fukushima NP might have been damaged by the quake BEFORE the tsunami. The reactors are all earthquake-proof, but a tsunami that large was beyond the realms. Is this an extension of that fear? All of the leaks since the end of January can be accounted for by freezing joints, but with this leak they are maintaining that they cannot find plausible cause. Sabotage?

    In a way you can't blame TEPCO for being mortally afraid - anything that could be seen as earthquake damage is being held up as a 'smoking gun'. The earthquake resistance of the plant should not be seen to hold to every pipe and valve anyway, especially as the plant suffered physical and corrosion damage from the tsunami - it should be that the system as a whole was able to resist the earthquake. There is no data in the public realm that shows it was not.

    As for leaks, if they were caused by the earthquake then the fractured surfaces would show some kind of reaction to the environment. Failed joints will, upon examination, at least be able to indicate the likely cause of their damage: failure from ice rupture is much different from shearing caused by a sudden jolt, or the fatigue failure experienced in an environment with lots of sources of vibration.

  • 0

    SquidBert

    @Star-viking

    It was your own words stating that such damage could occur trough many other mechanisms besides earth quakes and tsunamis.

  • -2

    Star-viking

    SquidBertFeb. 03, 2012 - 02:07PM JST

    @Star-viking

    It was your own words stating that such damage could occur trough many other mechanisms besides earth quakes and tsunamis.

    So what SquidBert? Go pick up a basic engineering text book and you can find much more on the damage mechanisms I described. The fact that these mechanisms can occur in NPPs is no big surprise - they can occur in virtually any engineered system with plumbing, vibration levels, and corrosive environments. Trying to draw a parallel between the tsunami-damaged Fukushima Dai-Ichi Plant and other plants is like trying to draw car reliability conclusions from a vehicle which as been submerged in water - foolish.

  • 3

    zichi

    Star-viking,

    people who work with piping in an industrial complex like a NPP or heavy chemical plant are pipe engineers and pipe fitters. We don't use the term "plumbing" or "plumbers" when referring to pipework.

  • 1

    SquidBert

    Go pick up a basic engineering text book and you can find much more on the damage mechanisms I described. The fact that these mechanisms can occur in NPPs is no big surprise.

    I have at least a more than rudimentary understanding of the mechanisms you described, and I am not at all surprised that they could occur in an NPP. But then again I am not the one that is usually touting on this forum that Nuclear Power Plants are the safest thing invented since baby rattlers.

  • -3

    Star-viking

    zichi Feb. 03, 2012 - 04:05PM JST

    Star-viking,

    people who work with piping in an industrial complex like a NPP or heavy chemical plant are pipe engineers and pipe fitters. We don't use the term "plumbing" or "plumbers" when referring to pipework.

    And that's a very punchy reply, save that it's not a reply to the question I asked, which was not about what people work with the piping at NPPs or Heavy Chemical Plants, but...

    "it is very common for engineers to refer to pipes that carry water or gas in a facility as 'plumbing'. The link in your post of Feb. 02, 2012 - 09:39AM JST shows pipes and valves - plumbing in general terms - what would you call them? "

    The them at the end clearly referring to "pipes and valves".

    This might be because of a misapprehension about my earlier post:

    "What proof do you have that is is earthquake damage? The problem could be caused by lack of maintenance, corrosion, vibration, resonance, or even inadvertent physical damage. Plumbing causes problems all over the world, with or without earthquakes and tsunamis - else plumbers would be out of business."

    Which is an analogy - not a suggestion that plumbers are fixing the pipes in NPPs.

    Anyhow, thanks for letting me know about the technical terms for those working on the pipes, valves and whatnot in NPPs.

  • -3

    Star-viking

    SquidBertFeb. 03, 2012 - 04:40PM JST

    "Go pick up a basic engineering text book and you can find much more on the damage mechanisms I described. The fact that these mechanisms can occur in NPPs is no big surprise."

    I have at least a more than rudimentary understanding of the mechanisms you described, and I am not at all surprised that they could occur in an NPP..

    And a whole world of other systems.

    But then again I am not the one that is usually touting on this forum that Nuclear Power Plants are the safest thing invented since baby rattlers.

    A bit of hyperbole? I made no such suggestion. It does match up with your backstreet orator impersonation:

    "I am glad you finally admit that Nuclear Power Plants are unsafe with or without earth quakes. "

    Pity I made no admission to add the small quality of truth to your assertion.

  • 1

    Utrack

    A Whistle-blower “Reactor 4 is inverse pyramid, very unstable and dangerous.” A Japanese journalist (a former secretary of Japanese prime minister) tweeted about reactor 4.

    Tonight, (1/31/2012), a diet lawmaker asked me to get in take a contact with a Tepco manager who whistle-blew about the situation of the SFP of reactor 4. He is from an engineering department. I took contact with the whistle-blower immediately. More people are concerned about the situation of reactor 4.

    A Tepco manager from engineering department showed this map of the fifth top floor of reactor 4. This is confidential. When 311 happened, it was in periodic checkup, large cranes or other heavy facilities were gathered at the reactor it was too much. The weight constitution is inverse pyramid, very unstable and dangerous.

    http://fukushima-diary.com/2012/02/whistle-blower-of-tepco-the-weight-constitution-is-inverse-pyramid-very-unstable-and-dangerous/

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