Which side do you think is most responsible for the deterioration in Sino-Japanese ties?

China without a doubt. They are being aggressive, unreasonable and clearly have a strategy in place to undermine Japan at every opporchancity.

I hate these sort of forced choice questionnaires because they so often omit critical options. Since 1813 China has been viewed by Western powers as a prize to seize, and this simply hasn't let up in the last two hundred years. It is true that Britain (one of the authors of "The Great Game") has assumed a less active role, but the U.S. (who have been active in the squabble over who will be China's master since the mid-17th century) have taken up the slack.

The question here is far more complex than simply assigning blame and calling one side a villain. One has to have a broader view and understand that China has been pushed around for a long time and many of their seemingly irrational policies and attitudes are in direct response to constant and consistent attempts by the West to destabilize their nation. The constant attempts to isolate and weaken China, with the eventual goal of conquering it, are simply not helping. Neither is bad-mouthing them constantly.

Yes, China do behave badly... quite often really. But there is a reason, they have been abused by the West for so long that they are copying their abuser's behavior. For the abusers to them come along and complain that China is behaving badly is tragically ironic. That people have conveniently forgotten the history behind this (or choose to see this issue as limited to a China vs Japan issue while ignoring their own countries' sizable contributions to the mess) is hypocrisy.

An excellent analysis, Frungy.

I think it is the case that China has internalised a harsh lesson from its history of colonial victimisation, first from the West and then from Japan: Be strong or you will be victimised. Hence China is taking an aggressive and indeed belligerent stance against what it perceives to be encroachments on its national interests, seeing international pressure as a repeat of colonialism.

There is a vicious feedback loop of nationalism from both Japan and China, which is gradually escalating. People often say that the Communist Party uses resentment of Japan to deflect attention that would otherwise be directed at its own shortcomings, and this is true (though far from the only thing accounting for hostility towards Japan). However, right-wing politicians in Japan have been doing their part to stoke this up with provocative acts such as visiting Yasukuni Shrine or whitewashing war history, and they profit from the increased tension likewise by getting Japanese people afraid of Chinese anger so that they will vote for more hard line politics. In the end, both profit from the other's behaviour so much that they might as well be in partnership.

I answered "Both" on this basis, but if trust is to be rebuilt, Japan needs to fully address its war atrocities and the creeping revival of imperialist sympathies, and this will be the first step to convincing others that Japan is not about to revisit that past.

As an outsider looking in, the strongest irritant in this relationship is China trying to push it's borders out on virtually all countries in Asia, not just Japan.

In terms of recent history? China.

Some people, just love to live in the past.

It is interesting how people immediately say: 'China' isn't it.

China have doubtless taken to perceived Japanese offences very loudly and aggressively; they have postured a lot. But surely this is what the world has come to expect from China? We know from their past and perhaps more importantly, recent, actions that they are striving to become the preeminent player in the world economy; and by extension premier political player as well.

But the Japanese cabinet are not really the fools we often paint them to be. They also understand this about China... maybe better than anyone else in the world including the USA. I would content that Abe's exceptionally hawkish and right-wing government has strategically prodded China to elicit this exact reaction.

Look at the evidence.... what has China's recent actions meant that Abe has been Abe to sell his public. Draconian anti-privacy legislation; a return to a full military is imminent; the re-writing of recent history and increased international political pull.

When asked the question above: Which side is most responsible.... Despite appearances, it's actually Japan.

It is interesting how people immediately say: 'China' isn't it.

In my case, it wasn't 'immediate'. It just happens to be true.

Despite appearances, it's actually Japan.

I disagree. China has done what it has done because it benefits China and it is want China wants to do. Nothing was needed to 'elicit' China's actions. They have been perfectly happy to do them. China has not been prodded into 'reacting'. They have been acting of their own accord.

But the Japanese cabinet are not really the fools we often paint them to be.

Neither is the Chinese government.

Both. Both of them have been aggressively and belligerently grabbing land around them. The only way for this to end is if at least one of them stands down, takes it all on the chin and accepts their past and recent actions as being hostile.

Both Countries have been using this situation to direct attention away from internal issues and even to promote certain policies that would never have been allowed through otherwise. The people of both nations need to wake up and smell the coffee. Over-promoted nationalism does nothing more than cause wars, wars we're all surely tired of after witnessing the horrors of both worlds wars and their aftermaths.

If one of them can swallow their pride and accept, perhaps, more than is needed about them and try and talk to the other about promoting a partnership between them I think it could make a world of difference for both their economies, but I'm no expert.

Thank you Frungy for making an excellent point.

Clearly the media (including Japan Today) would like us to think that China is the big bully.

But it's not as simple as that.

The US is building up bases all around China, presumably to try to contain it, as they did with Russia.

Abe is about to recreate the Imperial Japanese armed forces, rewrite history, and rebuild a "spirit of nationalism," all, as Jaymann points out, without anyone being able to say a word against it, as to do so would be against his "secrecy" act.

This is a far more complicated issue than can be voted on with only three buttons, as Frungy says.

Although, in any case, all that this kind of survey reveals is how effective the media propaganda has been - how much wool has been pulled over how many eyes.

Although, in any case, all that this kind of survey reveals is how effective the media propaganda has been - how much wool has been pulled over how many eyes.

China has been the physical aggressor in this case. In fact, China has even claimed that Okinawa is their territory. I am not sure how the US has anything at all to do with what is going on now. Yes, there are historical events. However, to use them to exonerate present Chinese behavior is quite off the mark. The present Chinese government has a real history of aggression against its neighbors. The present country and government of Japan does not.

Abe is transient - chances are he will be voted out at the next election. His perceived return to a militarist Imperial Japan (which I don't believe for a minute) can be undone at the ballot box. He could also be caught with another woman, or with his hand in the till - Nothing is cast in stone. China on the other hand....

China on the other hand....

Exactly. People seem to be forgetting that China is the one negative constant in this equation.

slumdogJan. 27, 2014 - 07:10PM JST

Exactly. People seem to be forgetting that China is the one negative constant in this equation.

What equation? The one that ignores that China was invaded in 1900 by an 8-nation alliance consisting of Austria-Hungary, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the U.K. and the U.S.? Or the equation that ignores 1937 invasion of China by Japan? Yeah, sure China has invaded India and Tibet in return, but after all it was just learning from the best... namely, find some little nation down on its luck and put the boot in while its down.

The only real problem is that China's PR department sucks.

If the deterioration of Japan and China relation is because of China, then is Korea also responsible for the deterioration of relation between Japan and Korea? Tell me again what the Koreans did? Obviously if ask the Japanese, they will always say the other people are responsible for their problems. You should do an equal sample poll among the people of all three countries, even you'll see the score is even. That'll be confusing isn't it?

But none of such polls really matter, because the results are simply reflections of each country's' domestic media propaganda.

I'll start a scorecard:

Japan: Yasukuni, No Official Apology for 'comfort women', teaching BS nationalist revisionist history to Japanese kids about WWII.

China: Teaching BS nationalist revisionist history to Chinese kids about WWII, repeated incursions into Japanese administered territory and waters. Expanding "its" ADZ into Japanese (and other's).

Hmm. I blame China.

But not for the scorecard, though that is enough. (International boundary disputes directly leads to wars. Textbooks and bs Shrines do not, people).

Nope, I blame China because Chinese leaders appear to me to be behaving foolishly. Here is the deal: Abe and his group have a very simple plan. They want to dump dump Article Nine, and teach BS revisionist history to Japanese kids about WWII. While I agree with the former, i think it ought to coincide with teaching the real story to Japanese kids, so that Japan can make amends to Imperial Japan's victims, and move on. Regardless, Abe heads the fellows in Japan who just wants to dump Article 9 without doing so. So their plan is to use every stupid international misstep, over-reaction, strident whining, attempted bullying to move Japan towards dumping Art 9, and getting the US and even South Korea to support them, b/c China is acting like a stupid idiot.

And that is exactly what is going on.

Obviously China. The ccp corrupt political elites in Beijing are the one bringing the rhetoric to cover up their greed and stashing Billions of Dollars in the Cayman Islands.

The amount of money in Cayman Island can feed the whole Chinese peasants on slave wages, while the elite party members are shitting on their own people. Listen they create so much propaganda and bull crap to divert their Own people on the real problems of China. The lower class Chinese are being treated like beast, while the top politicos and military generals are on a spending spree on ill gotten wealth of their nation with (hidden accounts and properties overseas).

They would rather cling on to their power and save their ideology to supplement their own greed. The big problem it's creating imbalance of prosperity across Asia and the whole Pacific.

Who the hell claims the whole pacific as their own lake on basis of fake historical maps >? Typical ! Japan alone is not the only one having problems with China, you have Vietnam, India and The Philippines. Throw in the plight of the Tibetans under China's annexation - nuff said.

What equation?

The current equation. It is naive to suppose that China's actions now have anything to do with what happened 100 or even 80 years ago. It is China's expansion goals that have it at odds with a variety of its neighbors. I for one resent your implicatation that China is like some small child that does not know any better and is just copying what other countries did over a hundred years ago.

China knows exactly what they are doing.

Most countries blame Japan, or Abe in particular, for starting the problem about a year ago, although they blame China for their tough responses. Most countries also see Abe is the one who is going about the world telling every one that China is a threat, and they see that as making the situation more difficult. And this includes Japan's ally the US.

Considering Abe's popularity in Japan, it seems that only the Japanese people blame everything on China, and they certainly do. This clear support for Abe will only embolden him to go further. Expect the relation with China (and Korea) to worsen. May be the Japanese people don't care. They've always felt superior to them anyways.

Which side do you think is most responsible for the deterioration in Sino-Japanese ties?

Mainly China, but with no shortage of prodding by Abe, former Tokyo Governor Ishihara and other self-serving Japanese politicians.

@Frungy - It's 2014, not 1813. If you and the CCP don't realize the world has changed in the past 200 years, you're in for a lot of hurt. Justifying CCP aggression towards its neighbors because of abuse China suffered during the Colonial Period is a specious and childish argument, not least of all because of the huge amount of capital and business development the 'Colonial Powers' (including Japan) have invested in China over the past 20-30 years that have fueled China's rapid development.

Besides, remind me when Tibet, Vietnam and the Philippines (and the other SE Asian nations who the CCP are attempting to rob of territory and resources with their ambit claim over the entire South China Sea) have ever 'abused' or occupied China in the past to justify the CCP's current belligerence towards them?

The CCP have been fueling all the current problems. Using Japan's legal ownership of some islands, visits to shrines, contents of schoolbooks, the right-wing musings of a few insensitive Japanese citizens, and events of 70-200 years ago as an justification for military belligerence and a campaign of (central government orchestrated) anti-Japanese propaganda locally and globally is simply idiotic. Unlike CCP China, Japan has threatened no-one with militarist rhetoric or displays of force, or laid claim to or stolen none of its neighbour's territories lands or resources, or have hatred of any other nation as a central plank of government policy. Japan pushing back diplomatically against CCP belligerence (or altering internal policies to protect themselves from it), does not 'make them as bad' as CCP China.

slumdogJan. 28, 2014 - 06:37AM JST The current equation. It is naive to suppose that China's actions now have anything to do with what happened 100 or even 80 years ago.

China's actions now have nothing to do with what is happening now in the same way that the U.S. actions now aren't shaped by their history of genocide against that Native Americans, slavery and discrimination. History ALWAYS leaves it mark on the current behavior of a nation. Japan's current behavior is likewise the result of historical conflicts and disagreements.

It is utterly illogical to dismiss "what happened 100 or even 80 years ago" when the current disagreement was sparked over the Senkaku Islands.... which were a vassal state of China's more than 400 years ago, and which is the basis for China's current claim. Saying that the Chinese are ignorant about their history? Ridiculous. Saying that history has no impact on the current dispute is simply an attempt to deny the role of Western powers in the current crisis, much like the U.S. suffers from constant and convenient bouts of amnesia about their role in creating the crisis in the Middle East.

I for one resent your implicatation that China is like some small child that does not know any better and is just copying what other countries did over a hundred years ago.

I didn't ever state that China didn't know what it was doing, I do however maintain that it had some very hard and real lessons in realpolitik from the West and has learnt from those lessons. The West's problem with China is that China hasn't been a good boy and forgotten, and is now copying those behaviors... not that China would have to remember very far back to have examples of Western Imperialism... after all the U.S. is currently treating Iraq as a puppet nation.

China knows exactly what they are doing.

At least we can agree on this. China has a plan. As long as you deny history, refuse to understand the plan and demonize China you'll never understand it though.

Frungy,

China has retained MFN and later PMFN status in the US for more than 30 years. This has led to unprecedented economic growth in China. With the world's help, China has become what it is. It is time for them to remember more recent history, too.

Today's news: American's opinion about what Japan should do: The US House of Representatives followed by the US Senate recently passed an expenditure bill containing a reference to House of Representatives Resolution 121 (or H.Res 121), which President Barack Obama subsequently signed into law. Put simply, H.Res 121 urges the Japanese government to address the issue of "comfort women" — more than 20,000 women of Korean, Chinese and other nationalities who were forced into sex slavery by the Japanese imperial forces before and during World War II. More specifically, H.Res 121 urges the Japanese government to "formally acknowledge, apologize and accept historical responsibility in a clear and unequivocal manner" for this wartime atrocity. It also exhorts Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to "apologize in a public statement", and the Japanese leadership "to refute claims denying the existence and purpose of the system as well as to educate current and future generations about this horrible wartime crime".

You simply cannot have a dispute unless there are two or more parties. While Japan started the increase in tensions thanks to Ishihara, both nations are to blame for keeping and even increasing tensions further.

The number 20,000 first came from North Korea. There is no evidence to prove such a big figure. It's impossible there were not enough food even for J soldiers.

slumdogJan. 28, 2014 - 10:27AM JST China has retained MFN and later PMFN status in the US for more than 30 years. This has led to unprecedented economic growth in China. With the world's help, China has become what it is. It is time for them to remember more recent history, too.

So, in other words, China's lousy human rights record, territorial aggression and all the other "bad" things the U.S. is complaining about haven't stopped the U.S. from actively giving Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status to China and actively funding and encouraging all these bad things for the last 30 years... and your argument was that history is irrelevant in this discussion????? .... wow.... way to argue against yourself.

and your argument was that history is irrelevant in this discussion?????

Um, you have been unsuccessfully arguing that China is acting the way it is because of the horrible treatment it received more than 100 years ago. My counterpoint is that China has been treated quite well for quite some time and there is no reason for the behavior they are demonstrating. So, yes. I disagree with your claim that the history from over 100 years ago is relevant. China has great customers in Japan, Korea and in the West and it should mind the fact that it is biting the hands that feed it.

Ishihara is a trouble making idiot. No doubt about it. However, Japan controlled those islands way before that. Japan was also within its legal rights to buy them outright. They would have gone to the Japanese government anyway if the owner could no longer maintain them.

More Abe hate. Didn't the problem start with China being the aggressor, as it still is, before Abe was elected. And weren't so many commenters who dislike him also happy to see the previous government booted out? Perhaps dislike anything that starts with the letter "J"?

And pray tell, what land grabs has Japan made in the last 70 years?

slumdogJan. 28, 2014 - 03:43PM JST Um, you have been unsuccessfully arguing that China is acting the way it is because of the horrible treatment it received more than 100 years ago. My counterpoint is that China has been treated quite well for quite some time and there is no reason for the behavior they are demonstrating. So, yes. I disagree with your claim that the history from over 100 years ago is relevant. China has great customers in Japan, Korea and in the West and it should mind the fact that it is biting the hands that feed it.

So where is this magical amnesia pill administered? At the 50 year mark, or the 20 year mark? If you knew a thing about Chinese culture, you'd know that they still memorize quotes from Confucius and talk about the Boxer rebellion. Your culture may prize ignorance of anything before yesterday, but Chinese culture does not.

So where is this magical amnesia pill administered?

The split second relations were normalized between the parties involved and China went on to be as successful as it is thanks to the help of the very nations it seems to enjoy spitting all over.

slumdogJan. 28, 2014 - 07:09PM JST

So where is this magical amnesia pill administered?

The split second relations were normalized between the parties involved and China went on to be as successful as it is thanks to the help of the very nations it seems to enjoy spitting all over.

Hahahahahahahaha!! ... thanks, but I won't be taking any advice about international relations from you. France and Britain are still often at odds with each other thanks to a war than happened over 500 years ago... and despite Britain saving them from the Germans twice... and despite long and mutually profitable trade relations... admittedly it was a very long war and Britain said some very hurtful things about baguettes, but still, it just goes to illustrate how wrong you are about history playing no role in shaping contemporary international relations.

Frungy,

You are not making any sense here, either. Neither France and Britain are not physically threatening each other or their territory. China has benefitted from Japan, South Korea and the West. Relations are normalized between them. There is no reason for China to be claiming Okinawa or anything else Japan controls and has controlled for quite some time now. Again, you bring no reasons based on the current situation for China to be acting as they are.

Hahahahahahahaha!!

Perhaps the most pertinent and intelligent thing you have written in this discussion. Congrats.

Frungy and slumdog, please stop sniping at each other.

slumdogJan. 28, 2014 - 08:53PM JST Frungy, You are not making any sense here, either. Neither France and Britain are not physically threatening each other or their territory.

I'm not making sense? Says the person with the double-negative?

Lol.

china but not to say that japan hasn't done anything to exacerbate the situation. abe's visit to yasukuni was idiotic...as was china's declaration of an air defense zone other countries territory.

I'm not making sense?

No, you are not. China is obviously the physical aggressor in this conflict. They have conflicts with a number of their Asian neighbors. France and Britain are not physically threatening each other or their territory.

Says the person with the double-negative?

Oh, sorry my mistaken was so confusing for you. I rewrote it again above. However, better a slight typing error than a lack of a point. You cannot seem to make up your mind what you want to say. I have. In this case, China is the worst of the two by a long shot.

Lol.

Keep up that deep content.

China lacks "exit strategy." How do they want this issue to end?

If China has one, they should signal it to Japanese politicians.

Settlement through ICJ is the exit plan of Japan. But it has to wait till China agrees to the plan.

Well duh. Japan for invading the place. You reap what you sow.

Invade? Where do you mean?

I find it interesting how every single post that doesn't go "Japan is blameless" is getting downvoted...

I put the blame - historically - on the West. If the Western Powers had behaved better back in the day (Unequal Treaties etc etc) then I don't think we'd have half the troubles we do now.

In more recent news, I think that while Japan does have to take some responsibility - not least for inflaming tensions with history revision (I also found out that the high school I work in DOESN'T TEACH WW2!) - it is China that is being the most belligerent at the moment. They are unilaterally attempting to expand and in doing so have pissed off most of the globe with interests in the area. The ADIZ is amongst these kind of actions, as is the expansion of controlled waters to overlap with Vietnam, the Philippines etc.

China wants to be taken seriously, but the way they're going about it has the feeling of an angry teenager claiming everything is his and that we don't understand...

Was anyone else riding the Oedo Line or the Yamanote Line this afternoon between Ikebukuro and Shibuya? The Chinese already seem to be arriving en masse. There were at least a dozen groups of 5 to 7 people (mostly young), getting on and of the train, or walking a little lost in the station. When I'm in Shinjuku this evening, I expect to see busloads. What happened to all the China Japan tension?

Japan expanded its ADIZ unilaterally into Taiwan's ADIZ in 2010. Why is that simple fact always overlooked? If China did it, no one would forget!

I find it interesting how every single post that doesn't go "Japan is blameless" is getting downvoted...

Ditto.

I put Japan slightly ahead of the blame game for two reasons. One, I cannot just write off Japan's pre-WWII actions like some people, especially J-politicians do. You can't kick someone in the nuts and say that was decades ago, and besides, I did it for your own good and BTW, the nut that fell off, I get to keep it. Does not fly anywhere, ever. Two, I cannot just overlook the fact that Japan hosts the U.S. military and we all know they are here because of China as well as N.K. Everyday spy flights take off from Kadena to poke around Hainan island. Every single day.

China is just reacting, although I don't like the reactions much either. Japan could stop all this if it really wanted to.

Sugar BowlJan. 31, 2014 - 05:06PM JST

Japan expanded its ADIZ unilaterally into Taiwan's ADIZ in 2010. Why is that simple fact always overlooked?

Japan expanded ADIZ within 12 nm radius of Yonaguni Island. Yonaguni Island is Japanese territory to which both China and Taiwan has no objection. The expansion is within Japanese territorial sea and air. That is why it is over looked. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2010/06/26/2003476438

It is China without any doubt. it is china in terms of history.

Anyone walking down Shinjuku St. tonight between the station and up to Isetan? Smiling and laughing Chinese tourists with cameras taking lots of pictures of each other. Their clothes give them away as main landers. Where is all the tension.

What the Japanese bashers don't admit to is how the relationship between China and Japan and Korea and Japan was fairly good until China had economic problems back in 2008 and became Korea's largest trade partner. Korea has chosen to back China and now sees Japan as an obstacle over seeing it as a economic competitor. Of course the failures at home, in both China and Korea, in terms of their own government actually working for their own people has led both of those nations to use nationalism, directed outwardly at Japan, as safe means of venting public frustration. That’s why we see anti-Japanese protest in China go on so long as the Chi-com government lets it. Of course Japan in not completely innocent. The Japanese Government could take a more honest look at World War II and do much to mend fences by not ducking the harsh introspection needed to show true contriteness for past wrongs. But do it honestly, if Japan can be very harsh on itself then it opens up legitimate criticism of snowballing Korean involvement in the Japanese military during World War II, for example the father of the current leader of S. Korea was an OFFICER in the Japanese military (hardly the same as some forced conscript) or China’s aggressive and imperialistic actions post World War II, Tibet invasion and occupation, war with Vietnam, mass murder of Chinese in the millions etc etc. Only by first standing in the light of truth can Japan expect to make such criticism stick. However if China and Korea think that the West is going to buy into their bunk logic of World War II era grievances they are only fooling themselves and sort of proves that much of their rhetoric against Japan is meant for their domestic audiences and not really grounded in logical international relation positions. So it is clear that the current problems between China and Japan are due to China not Japan.

Brainless question. What else would you expect the answer to be from the wannabes here?

Another reinforcement that Japan is right and all others are wrong. LOL.

Brainless question. What else would you expect the answer to be from the wannabes here?

Considering there are regularly lots of posts condemning Japanese actions as well as supporting them, I expect the answers to go in both directions.

Another reinforcement that Japan is right and all others are wrong. LOL.

The actual posts on this site don't show your comment to be accurate.

Japan for sure.....

1) it all started from the beginning of "nationalization" of the disputed island, which China had forewarned its consequences. 2) the visit of Yasukuni shrine worsen the situation. 3) the rightwing politicians keep their denials on comfort women, nanjing massacre.....

in return, China has to retaliate with (it has nothing to do with dosmetic politics in China)

1) going all out to claim the Diaoyu/Senkaku island, which if not has been kept very low profile since the establishment of diplomatic relationship 2) by sending coastal guard vessels to reinforce its rights 3) by sending aircraft to survey the nearby disputed island 4) the establishment of ADIZ to cover the disputed island. (Japan established ADIZ in 1969 cover entire area up to 150km near China coastline) 5) to villify Japan in international stage on its rise of militarism

In the arts of Sunzi (warfare) Japan seems a bigger loser, they have invited para-military patrolling the disputed island on a regular basis, which it has shown Japan used to "administer" it since 1972 but now being "co-owned" and "managed" by 2 parties.

I think all these can be reverted if Japan go back to its agreement on Diaoyu/Senkaku like in the 70's then the region can see some peace. I think it's in the hand of Japan not China.

Hope my propaganda will receive thumb downs in this Japanese forum and those close to 50% Pro-Japan voter in this survey.

Evian1, you and about a few others are about the sharpest ones on here. Unfortunately the majority on here are strong japan supporters. Don't get me wrong, there are certain things I don't like about some of the Chinese I have come across. But overall, the Japanese have been agitating the issue for the longest. But I think that is part of their strategy. Behind the conveniences of the city and technology here, as well as the cuteness and peace signs, there is something else. I think the problem with the Japanese is they all do the same thing. They are like one unit. They make you think they are all individual, but they are all for one purpose. It's been instilled in them from school. Which makes me wonder which is worse, being hated or liked by them and their society. It's like a bandwagon culture. Just jump on whatever it is that is hot. I don't think that is true.