After Berlin attack, Europe weighs freedom against security

This is what Europe gets for believing that the accepting goodwill nature of Western culture could possibly mesh with Islamic beliefs and culture.

It's sad that Europe's efforts to overcome being the stage of both WWs, by implementing the beautiful concept of the Maastricht Treaty, are being destroyed brick by brick by the old war of Israel versus Palestine and its sequels.

As much as I liked the idea of Schengen when I was travelling through Europe, this experiment needs to be put on hold for the foreseeable future. Europe in general needs to grow a backbone and act decisively. Political correctness be damned.

Have known both europe(s), with and without borders and perso would not want to go back to the old system if I were still living there. Millions of belgians, french, dutch spaniards, italians, germans etc cross borders pretty much every day for work, tourism or simply to buy ciggies/alcohol or fill up the tank. I vaguely remember crossing the spanish border as a teen in the middle of august (pre eu without borders) and it wasnt fun.

Imo Europe has failed to protect their borders with non eu nations. From Spain to Greece or even eastern europe, millions of non europeans have entered the EU in the last 2-3 decades, and it's getting worse. Why can't they have a Mediterranean security fleet patrolling the Med sea 365 days/y? Am talking ships, planes, helicopters monitoring the area the same way oz has been doing for years. Immigration checkpoints at airports (at least regional ones) are far from perfect too.

Napoleon is turing over in his grave. After having wiped out the idiotic Kings and Queens, the "modern" Europeans have decided to NOT raise the world to their democratic standards but import the rabble. Not so smart. Globalists will always tear your nation apart, that's what they do.

Globalists will always tear your nation apart, that's what they do.

Somehow, I don't think these leaders are getting that point.

CrazyJoeDEC. 25, 2016 - 07:18AM JST This is what Europe gets for believing that the accepting goodwill nature of Western culture could possibly mesh with Islamic beliefs and culture.

Man, for someone who threw a complete tantrum the moment I dropped the word "Islamophobia", you spend an awful lot of time trying to imply Europeans to be inherently good and Muslims to be inherently not. SMH.

As for the article, it's pretty obvious that open boarders can work. Look at the US. You can freely travel between states but that doesn't stop LEOs from tracking criminals from state to state because there is a powerful federal government overseeing those states and ensuring they cooperate with each other's investigations. Europe's open borders are just a symptom of its real dilemma, its members can't decide if they want to be a bunch of little, fully independent states who do everything their own way or one big block trying to collectively compete with larger nations. Until they sort that out, these kinds of issues will come up regardless of how their borders work.

it's pretty obvious that open boarders can work.Look at the US. You can freely travel between states but that doesn't stop LEOs from tracking criminals from state to state...

European states speak different languages, have centuries old different systems. Stick to the day job.

Katsu78 has it spot on. And sadly the small minded nationalists are in the ascendant right now using fear of the foreign to their advantage. Echos of the 1920s and 30s.

"...it's pretty obvious that open boarders..."

Borders, not boarders. Boards are for snow.

3RENSHODEC. 25, 2016 - 03:50PM JST Borders, not boarders. Boards are for snow.

Yeah, this board really needs to implement some basic editing features so that we can correct common typos.

SabrageDEC. 25, 2016 - 02:23PM JST European states speak different languages, have centuries old different systems. Stick to the day job.

I'm skeptical that those are the real reasons that European states are failing to work with each other, but if they are, that would be yet more evidence that the issue isn't Muslims or borders. When your law enforcement is unable to do its job because it's operating under a centuries old system, it's time to modernize. The lives of innocents aren't worth a few stodgy traditions.

Europe doesn't need to, and shouldn't, scrap Schengen; what it needs to do is a better job of policing the external Schengen border and preventing illegal immigration into the zone. Anas Amri wasn't a refugee, and Tunisians have no business claiming asylum in Europe, so it's right that his claim was rejected and a real shame that he wasn't deported in time before murdering a dozen people; but his act can't be pinned on Schengen, and the likes of Le Pen and Farage are a disgrace for seeking to score their nationalist political points from this attack.

"Katsu78 has it spot on. And sadly the small minded nationalists are in the ascendant right now using fear of the foreign to their advantage. Echos of the 1920s and 30s."

You have to ask what is fueling the rise of nationalism in Europe. This didn't come out of nowhere. There are genuine bigots out there but many are asking the simple question of why can't we have more sensible immigration policies.

If we see the far right coming to power in European countries, it will be the failure of the left to address this question which opened the door for them.

Jimizo, it's always someone else's fault isn't it? People are responsible for their own actions. It's fine to ask questions of our politicians, immigration and foreigners are easy targets for those looking to rally the resentment of those who feel forgotten. We've seen it all before in Europe and the political and economic union including open borders are an attempt to change those old resentments. Sadly there's always a market for the blame game. We forget history at our peril. You reap what you sow is an obvious truism here.

Merry Christmas everyone.

@SwissToni

I'm very concerned about the rise of the far right in Europe. People in countries like France, Germany, Belgium and the UK are justifiably concerned about their security.

I like sensible politics. Sensible economic policies, sensible environmental policies, sensible energy policies...Why do otherwise sensible people recoil at the mention of sensible immigration policies?

This very worrying trend in Europe could have been avoided.

Why do otherwise sensible people recoil at the mention of sensible immigration policies?

Tearing the EU apart because people are scared of terrorism isn't a sensible immigration policy; the likes of Farage and Le Pen wish to tear the EU up - not because they want sensible immigration policies, but because the EU is anathema to their worldview - and are playing on terrorism fears to achieve their goal by dressing it up in a veneer of only wanting to discuss sensible immigration policies. People in Barnsley voting to leave the EU in order to keep immigrants from Muslim countries out, for example, is a clear non-sequitur as the EU has nothing to do with immigration to the UK from Muslim countries.

This very worrying trend in Europe could have been avoided.

How though? Unless you're talking about the silencing somehow of Le Pen, Wilders, Farage et al, or you think you could have prevented the 2008 financial crisis, or you have the solution to the Syrian war and refugee crisis, I'm not sure what you're driving at. These politicians are using the financial crisis fallout and the Syrian war fallout to manipulate opinions, how do you suggest this could have been avoided?

JimizoDEC. 25, 2016 - 07:51PM JST I like sensible politics. Sensible economic policies, sensible environmental policies, sensible energy policies...Why do otherwise sensible people recoil at the mention of sensible immigration policies?

Probably because far-rightists and Neo-Nazis have used the words "sensible immigration policies" as a propaganda trick for duping the gullible, the uninformed, and the hateful into getting on board with their xenophobia and hate.

"Sensible" isn't a magical code word that automatically makes whatever comes next okay, it actually requires a bit of sense to be applied. And that's what's missing in this talk of "sensible immigration policy". Want to prove me wrong? Exactly which immigration policy is it that you think led to Anis Amri being able to stay in Europe?

Trick question- immigration policy had nothing to do with it: Amri had no background in extremism when he illegally migrated to Europe. He wasn't even especially devout as a Muslim - apparently his radicalization happened in Italian prison. No amount of increased vetting would have detected his potential threat at the border because his threat didn't exist then. He was placed in a temporary migrant reception center, because all migrants have to be put somewhere, where he participated in a violent riot, so he was sent to prison in Italy for four years. Again, there is nothing wrong with this, and no change to immigration policy would have stopped this. After that authorities tried to repatriate him to Tunisia, only Tunisia wouldn't accept him. No change to immigration would have fixed that either - you can't get rid of someone if there's no one willing to take them. At least assuming by "sensible immigration policy" you don't mean just setting people adrift at sea to die. Now, after that his case clearly got bungled by authorities- German police missed a couple of chances to arrest him and in one case apparently he got away while police were trying to question him, but that's not an immigration policy, that's a law enforcement policy.

I can't see a single immigration policy, certainly not any sensible one, that could possibly have averted this tragedy. There are plenty of law-enforcement policies, sure. And I think if you were sincere about trying to stop terror attacks instead of just trying to keep Muslims out, that's what you'd be talking about. But sadly, that's not what you're talking about. You're claiming you want to be sensible, but your ulterior motive is on display for everyone to see.

The most sensible plan I have is to build a wall.

Build it high and and man it with machine gun towers. Build it around the middle east to keep all other countries from entering and interfering within the boundary and keep those inside from moving out. Enjoy your religion of peace among yourselves.

After the sun expands and the only life left on planet earth is reduced to just microbes, the microbes in the middle east will still hate each other.

Dave Barry: "They can hold all the peace talks they want, but there will never be peace in the Middle East. Billions of years from now, when Earth is hurtling toward the Sun and there is nothing left alive on the planet except a few microorganisms, the microorganisms living in the Middle East will be bitter enemies."

One of my favorite writers ever. Some of his quotes: http://enginesofmischief.com/makers/evan/sigs/barry.html

How about refusing entry to muslims unless their countries enter into fast track deportation agreements? This way those who are willing to knuckledown, work hard and obey the rules can still do so without any problems but criminals and terrorists and the like, who damage the reputation of the whole community and increase European hostility towards all newcomers, can be rapidly removed which will benefit everyone.

You can argue that this is discriminatory but that doesn't necessarily negate sense.

GoEastDEC. 26, 2016 - 03:46AM JST How about refusing entry to muslims unless their countries enter into fast track deportation agreements?

So you create an elaborate new policy that interferes with the lives of thousands of innocent people just to prevent the last attack that already happened?

Lose the obsession with keeping Muslims out. It will never accomplish your goal. If you want safety, you need to stop suspecting Muslims collectively for every little problem and instead build a trans-European law enforcement agency (like the FBI but without the election-interference) that respects human rights but is able to navigate the many different countries it operates in.

you need to stop suspecting Muslims collectively for every little problem

Even tough they are over represented in crime statistics but what ever.

EU isnt one country on its own its a collection of countries working together please keep the whole united under one roof out of this because its never going to happen. the political pendulum swinging in another direction sadly the current "left" is too busy talking down to people instead of talking with them.

Even tough they are over represented in crime statistics but what ever.

Are they? Please provide some statistics to support this claim, as I've never seen any numbers that support that claim myself.