Environmental groups file lawsuit over Trump climate actions

This is all about maximizing coal company profits out of a resource that is declining in value. Rolling back the environmental rules, the safety rules, and the restrictions on mining in general presumably lower the cost of doing business. He's just doing a favor for an industry that supported him, no more no less.

And so if the Republican's talk about mining employment looks like nonsense, that's because it is nonsense, and they know it. This has nothing to do with employment. This is about putting more money in the pockets of big business.

And so if the Republican's talk about mining employment looks like nonsense, that's because it is nonsense, and they know it.

I doubt it, there are so many ways to produce cleaner burning coal.

This has nothing to do with employment. This is about putting more money in the pockets of big business.

No, this has everything to do with employment.

bass4funkMAR. 30, 2017 - 09:06AM JST I doubt it, there are so many ways to produce cleaner burning coal.

You were already corrected on this so you need to stop spreading this lie. Cleaner coal is not clean coal. There is no such thing as "clean coal". Coal will always be a dirty, toxic, climate-change causing, unsustainable, backwards fuel. Improvements in technology might make it slightly less terrible, but it will never be a good choice for the 21st century.

No, this has everything to do with employment.

As has already been pointed out to you several times, far more people are employed by the solar industry than the coal industry. No one who cheers for coal is shedding a tear for all these solar workers who are out of a job. CrazyJoe is right - this has nothing to do with employment.

I doubt it, there are so many ways to produce cleaner burning coal.Oh really can you give a bit more of an explanation.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/energy-and-the-environment/clean-coal-technologies.aspx

You were already corrected on this so you need to stop spreading this lie.

I wasn't corrected on anything. I don't think it's a lie.

Cleaner coal is not clean coal. There is no such thing as "clean coal". Coal will always be a dirty, toxic, climate-change causing, unsustainable, backwards fuel. Improvements in technology might make it slightly less terrible, but it will never be a good choice for the 21st century.

Ok, that's your opinion, I don't share that opinion.

As has already been pointed out to you several times, far more people are employed by the solar industry than the coal industry.

Good, I'm not focusing or talking about the people that live in the coastal areas that enjoy the fun in the sun, beaches and the vegan lifestyle. I'm talking about the people that live and have worked for centuries in the coal mining industry.

No one who cheers for coal is shedding a tear for all these solar workers who are out of a job.

I am so happy you had the guts to say that and now you know why Trump won.

this has nothing to do with employment

No, it has everything to do with employment.

bass4funkMAR. 30, 2017 - 11:00AM JST I wasn't corrected on anything. I don't think it's a lie.

Things don't become truth or lies based on your opinion. They become truth or lies because they are true or not true. What you think doesn't enter into it. Coal is an inherently toxic fuel.

Ok, that's your opinion, I don't share that opinion.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Coal is inherently unsustainable. There is no way to get it back on this planet once it is burnt. Coal is a poisonous, climate-change causing fuel. You can't wish these truths away just because you don't like them.

Good, I'm not focusing or talking about the people that live in the coastal areas that enjoy the fun in the sun, beaches and the vegan lifestyle. I'm talking about the people that live and have worked for centuries in the coal mining industry.

What an absurd comment. People who work in solar power are ordinary Americans, just like you or I. It is a nation-wide industry, and has nothing to do with how people have fun, what they eat, or where they live. You are seriously proposing government bailing out an unsustainable, toxic industry and undermining a sustainable, healthy industry that employs more people just because you have a petty grudge against an imaginary stereotype in your head of who works in that industry. How pathetic.

Things don't become truth or lies based on your opinion.

The article wasn't my opinion, it was based on facts. By the way, I'm going to make sure I jot that that comment you said, I wish liberals would live by that creed.

They become truth or lies because they are true or not true. What you think doesn't enter into it. Coal is an inherently toxic fuel.

Ok, but there are experts that think different or at least can make it CLEANER.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Coal is inherently unsustainable. There is no way to get it back on this planet once it is burnt. Coal is a poisonous, climate-change causing fuel. You can't wish these truths away just because you don't like them.

Yawn...sorry, but I support the coal miners.

What an absurd comment. People who work in solar power are ordinary Americans,

So are coal minors, even if you vilify them.

just like you or I. It is a nation-wide industry, and has nothing to do with how people have fun, what they eat, or where they live. You are seriously proposing government bailing out an unsustainable, toxic industry and undermining a sustainable, healthy industry that employs more people just because you have a petty grudge against an imaginary stereotype in your head of who works in that industry. How pathetic.

Each to his own.

This is all about maximizing coal company profits out of a resource that is declining in value.

No, it is not. It is about alternative energy groups who cannot sell their product in a market in competition against a cheaper alternative. Without regulations to raise the cost of fossil fuels, and without state subsidies to offset the high prices of alternative energy, these companies stand to lose a lot of money. If coal is declining in value, that means it is cheaper, and so is the energy which it produces.

Make no mistake, it is about money, and just because the company produces windmills or solar panels does not mean it is concerned about anything more than profit. What I dislike most about alternative energy companies is that their profits are completely dependent on regulating competitors out of business, and state subsidies.

Elon Musk is a billionaire, and fully half of his fortune is the result of state subsidies. Most Americans cannot afford to buy a new Tesla, but because of subsidies, those who do have part the cost of buying a new Tesla offset by taxes paid by those who cannot afford to buy one. Nice scam, isn't it? Few people would bother to buy a new Tesla if it were not for the subsidies, just as few people would buy solar or wind systems for their homes. And most people would find it hard to afford their energy bills if state subsidies to solar and wind companies did not lower the cost. But in the end, the cost is not really lowered, rather than being paid for in your utility bills, you pay for it with your taxes.

And, no. Fossil fuel companies are not subsidized in the way alternative energy companies are. What are called "subsidies" by the likes of Huffpo are not cash payments, but normal deductions for expenses which other companies pay. Oil company write-offs amount to some $20 billion per year, yet the two largest oil companies pay some $50 billion in taxes per year. As a businessperson in Japan, my own write-offs are much larger than what my tax bill is, nearly all profitable businesses are the same. In this light, oil companies contribute far more of their profits in taxes than just about any other industry.

Of course you'll hear that subsidies to alternative energy are $40 billion, or even $50 billion, but that is nonsense. These figures are come by through adding the cost of supporting the US military in the middle east and Asia, and by adding the cost of local energy subsidies which reduce the heating bills to low income people. In the latter case, it is not the oil companies being subsidized, but the low-income buyers of reduced-cost heating oil and electricity.

The previous administration was manipulated by the green energy lobby, which is as concerned with earning a profit as any other industry. There is nothing noble about them, or how they hoodwinked the state into using taxpayer cash to pad their profits.

As for CO2, the historical average level for the past 65 million years is 2500 ppm. The lowest level was 200 ppm. Right now, we are at nearly 400 ppm. The optimal level for plant growth is 2000 ppm. We are far, far, below the historical average levels for CO2.

Speaking of "Green", since CO2 levels have increased, satellite photos show an earth which is becoming more green.

And, by the way, my home in America is 100% solar powered.

bass4funkMAR. 30, 2017 - 11:25AM JST Ok, but there are experts that think different or at least can make it CLEANER.

And as has been said already, cleaner is NOT clean. A lie of yours was identified, and now you're circling back to it. Kindly don't waste our time with this BS.

So are coal minors, even if you vilify them.

I didn't vilify them - in fact I didn't say a single thing about coal miners, positive or negative. What is it with you and this apparently constant need to lie on this board? Surely if you had a shred of support for your case you wouldn't need to constantly play these dishonest rhetorical games.

Each to his own.

No, you don't get to play that escape. YOU attacked the workers of the solar energy industry, and then when called on it you pretended I had attacked workers in the coal industry even when I had never said a single thing about them. This is not a matter of opinion. You are lying, trolling the board, and you need to stop.

Moderator: And you need to learn some manners. You can have 24 hours off from posting for being impolite to another reader. During this time, please refamiliarize yourself with the rules of the discussion board.

Coal is a dying industry because more and more companies and governments are choosing to not use it. Removing regulations won't change that, it will just give false hope to a lot of hard workers who would be better off decoupling their livelihoods from the industry. All Trump is doing is kicking the can down the road and telling us he's solved the problem.

We'd be better off just shutting down coal and giving direct cash payment to coal workers. That way the GOP can give them their free government handout but my lungs won't be worse because of it.

And bass, no, you don't support coal. The GOP supports coal so you're forced to fight for them because party before country, but as a person, no, I can't imagine you support giving subsidies to dying industries that will pollute the environment.

So after getting your marching orders you come to message boards and get utterly destroyed by people who have actually read about the issue. Now you're forced to look at scientific evidence and say, "Yeah, man, like, that's just your opinion" because you don't have anything to support your position other than "The GOP likes it so it must be good....for some reason....just give me a second here...."

Coal is a dying industry because more and more companies and governments are choosing to not use it. Removing regulations won't change that, it will just give false hope to a lot of hard workers who would be better off decoupling their livelihoods from the industry. All Trump is doing is kicking the can down the road and telling us he's solved the problem.

Until an alternative and better solution comes around, yes or will you use your money to subsidize the millions that work in the industry. Hope you saved up a lot of cash.

We'd be better off just shutting down coal and giving direct cash payment to coal workers. That way the GOP can give them their free government handout but my lungs won't be worse because of it.

I don't think we would be better off.

And bass, no, you don't support coal. The GOP supports coal so you're forced to fight for them because party before country, but as a person, no, I can't imagine you support giving subsidies to dying industries that will pollute the environment.

As I said, until a viable solution can come to take care of these people, crank it.

So after getting your marching orders you come to message boards and get utterly destroyed by people who have actually read about the issue.

1) I don't and never have received marching orders. 2) I've never been destroyed, where have you been?

Now you're forced to look at scientific evidence and say, "Yeah, man, like, that's just your opinion" because you don't have anything to support your position other than "The GOP likes it so it must be good....for some reason....just give me a second here...."

I already posted other ideas of alternate energy, you want to refute them go ahead, won't change my opinion.

Change your opinion? No. Mostly looking to make an example of how far someone will go to sell themselves out so they can support a man like Donald Trump. You are reaching new depths recently.

Until an alternative and better solution comes around, yes or will you use your money to subsidize the millions that work in the industry. Hope you saved up a lot of cash.

See? You normally don't talk like this. I'm surprised you say that you want the government to pick and choose winners and losers. If you do some research you might be able to find the GOP's talking points instead of guessing so much. Guessing leads to you ultimately contradicting yourself and then getting angry at us for not going along with it. All to help the GOP present a position you disagree with.

Instead, the Chinese are putting their money into renewable energy.

By building 25+ new nuclear power plants?

The alternatives are already here and just need to keep being focused to create more innovation and advancement in their fields. Trump's trying to inject "interest" into an increasingly obsolete "energy" source.

I'm very much an environmentalist minded person. Because if we screw up our environment, we screw over humanity's ability to live comfortably on this planet. I like being able to breath clean air (which in my state improved drastically from back in the 1990s when it was really funky every single week) Keep abusing natural resources instead of focusing on renewable resources and the cycle of war to gain and/or control those resources will always be happening.

@Bass, the alternatives are already here bro. Why waste time and money on "cleaner" (no such thing) non-rewable coal usage?

https://sustainingpeople.net/2015/03/12/disneys-big-hero-6-tech-is-not-that-far-away/#comments https://www.tesla.com/powerwall https://www.tesla.com/solar http://www.marineturbines.com/ https://energy.gov/eere/geothermal/how-geothermal-power-plant-works-simple

But let's keep investing in big money lobbyist ideals to milk a dry and dying cash cow for all they can get! Always follow the money.

Because if we screw up our environment

If?

There are no if's, and's or but's, we have screwed our environment. There is no going back until we have a major depopulation incident. And then what's going to happen to those nuke plants when no one's controlling them? The corps that run the underbelly will never allow a leader to arise to challenge king oil, coal or gas. The petrodollar rules. There's a huge island of floating plastic swirling around in the mid-pacific. When's the last time anyone has seen or heard of this problem? Fukushima is leaking into the ocean. Once the phytoplankton die off, we're all dead anyway. H. G. Wells was right on target.

Change your opinion? No. Mostly looking to make an example of how far someone will go to sell themselves out so they can support a man like Donald Trump.

I'm a sellout now?? ROFL Funny, that's a new one, original at least and that's coming from the people would have jumped off a cliff for their president.

You are reaching new depths recently.

No, it's just the delusion Left and their expanding Unicornverse is reaching Apocalyptic proportions.

See? You normally don't talk like this. I'm surprised you say that you want the government to pick and choose winners and losers. If you do some research you might be able to find the GOP's talking points instead of guessing so much. Guessing leads to you ultimately contradicting yourself and then getting angry at us for not going along with it. All to help the GOP present a position you disagree with.

You seem agitated, relax.

Millions don't work in the coal industry. Coal industry employment appox 174,000 blue-collar workers; 83,000 miners; transport 31,000; power plant workers 60,000; 348,000 workers plus a number of indirect workers.

Sorry, I didn't do a head count.

Coal miners can be retrained for other employment which would be safer, cleaner, healthier than getting black lung disease from the pits and it would be cheaper to actually pay the miners not to even work than to think their way of life can be saved from the burning of "clean coal" which is more akin to "fool's gold" than reality.

How many coal miners do you personally know, sat down, had a decent conversation, ate breakfast and tried to listen to their concerns?

I know that's the problem, you exaggerate the numbers "millions" without checking the real figures.

Hey, I'm human.

The first point should be how to create new safe and clean jobs not forcing them back down the pits again.

As I said, it would be fair to consult with them, have a town hall and set up a program that would re-educate these people and in the meantime, find a way to subsidize the training and taking care financially of these people so while they are in the transitional stage all their finances are covered.

It's definitely strange how bass goes on about the evils of socialism, then shows himself to be a socialist when it comes to coal minors.

No, not even close, but if Zichi insists these people don't or shouldn't have the right to work in a trade many know for a very, very long time over a few generations, them in the meantime, who's going to train, feed and pay the bills for all these families? Believe me, I would rather see these people work, I don't want the government anywhere near the lives of these people, but the Dems, once again, thinks the government stepping in and taking care of these people is the way to go. Obama pulled the plug and told them, that's all folks, kinda a big FU if you will and these people showed their displeasure last November.

I guess the point is that socialism is bad, unless it's for an agenda which he supports, then it's ok, as long as you don't explicitly call it socialism.

It's never good, even for the causes I dearly support.

if Zichi insists these people don't or shouldn't have the right to work in a trade many know for a very, very long time over a few generations, them in the meantime, who's going to train, feed and pay the bills for all these families?

Any answer would be too socialist for you. So I think we need to do the Good Old Republican thing, and just cast them out to suffer for themselves. That's how capitalism works, right?

It's never good, even for the causes I dearly support.

Except that you're supporting it in providing work for them in an industry that is dying. Rather than letting it die a natural death, you're supporting socialism (yes, I understand you don't want to call it that) as the solution to the problem.

Any answer would be too socialist for you. So I think we need to do the Good Old Republican thing, and just cast them out to suffer for themselves. That's how capitalism works, right?

Or Trump goes ahead and gives a green light to the coal mines.

Except that you're supporting it in providing work for them in an industry that is dying. Rather than letting it die a natural death,

Ok, But I don't agree with you. I have a different opinion.

you're supporting socialism (yes, I understand you don't want to call it that) as the solution to the problem.

Not If these men and women are put back to work, then we don't have to worry about anything.

Ok, But I don't agree with you. I have a different opinion.

You can try to disagree with the fact that the sun rises every morning and sets every evening all you want, it doesn't change the facts.

But hey, if you want to believe the sun rises at night and sets in the morning, in your own head, go ahead.

Not If these men and women are put back to work, then we don't have to worry about anything.

Oh I know that. It's clear you're ok with socialism as long as you don't have to admit that's what it is.

Coal isn't coming back. These people won't be getting better lives, just empty promises from Republicans, and pollution for the rest of us.

Don't really know where you pulled that from, another of your magic tricks trying to pull something from nothing in the air. I have never said anything like that especially after you challenged me about not even knowing any miners but was shocked back to discover otherwise.

I'm not shocked, I just merely asked a perfectly legitimate question.

You have suggested that the miners should be able to keep their jobs regardless if it makes economic sense. I say people can be retrained to new jobs and last year Obama put $75 million on the table just for that.

And they still voted for Trump, that's all I needed to know.

Coal isn't coming back. These people won't be getting better lives, just empty promises from Republicans, and pollution for the rest of us.

So now you're the president?

Superlib: Coal isn't coming back. These people won't be getting better lives, just empty promises from Republicans, and pollution for the rest of us.

bass: So now you're the president?

You know, it's OK if you don't go after every single piece of criticism of Republicans on this site. Above is an example where you felt you needed to say something but had no response so you pasted my comment and responded with nonsense. Why not just pass over my post if you've nothing to respond with? You don't have to troll every single poster just because they criticized the GOP.

Oh my...

Coal miner reacts after Trump revokes Obama-era regulations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRsBJoGEsbQ

You know, it's OK if you don't go after every single piece of criticism of Republicans on this site.

Because not everything they do I disagree with, I'm a conservative, remember? But if I personally feel they do something idiotic, of course I would say something.

Above is an example where you felt you needed to say something but had no response so you pasted my comment and responded with nonsense.

You saw it as nonsense, I did not. So what is your point?

Why not just pass over my post if you've nothing to respond with? You don't have to troll every single poster just because they criticized the GOP.

I don't, I just call out bias liberal hypocrisy.

So now your socialist thinking is actually saying anyone who voted for Trump should get to keep their jobs.

On this, I do.

You don't know now many voted for Trump.

He did win the Electoral College 306, over the 270 mark.

Just relax. You've been posting for nearly 48 hours straight. You don't have to troll every single GOP criticism.

"restrict greenhouse gas emissions"

Oh my...

If Anthropogenic Climate Change Exists, We Are All Doomed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjag_U4bI6Y